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> I think the argument is that they are much less accessible to students with less privileged backgrounds. That's exactly backward though. The Ivy League scho

by danhak 10y ago

> I think the argument is that they are much less accessible to students with less privileged backgrounds. That's exactly backward though. The Ivy League schools all have need-blind admissions and meet 100% of demonstrated financial need (for U.S. students)

esrauch 10y ago
And yet the median income of the students parents at ivy league is something like $125k while the median income in America is more like $50k right?
- sokoloff 10y ago
  It would be shocking to me if the profile of students applying to Ivy League schools didn't skew substantially high on median family income, highest degree attained by parents, and SAT scores. Successful parents breed (read: raise) successful children. Surely not in every case, but in aggregate. As a successful graduate of a small tech school in Cambridge, I was aided by my parents' educational bent, bias, and investments of time and money. They were aided by their parents, just as my wife and I will aid our children.
  - esrauch 10y ago
    sjburt said they are less accessible to poor students, which I was defending as true.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Is accessibility best measured by: P ( student_is_poor | student_attends_ivy ) P ( applicant_is_admitted_to_ivy | applicant_is_poor ) I take the view that the latter is the better measure, but I can see people arguing that the former has some relevance.
      - esrauch 10y ago
        The point is that both are low, I would accept the second metric and I don't think it shows what you seen to claim it does. If you take all the applications submitted, income would be positively correlated with acceptance even though it is "needs blind". Some of that is implicit, but some of it is likely explicit (admit kids who played polo over kids who worked at McDonald's if everything else is equal)
        sokoloff 10y ago
        I agree that both are low. MIT's acceptance rate is a little under 1 in 12, and several Ivy League colleges have an even lower acceptance rate. I further agree that there is a positive correlation between income and acceptance. I further agree that there is a positive correlation between income and application. What I don't see is any productive way to 100% eradicate those correlations. I'm only familiar with the admissions policies as practiced by MIT in the late 80s and early 90s. There was explicit bias for diversity (which is good; no one wants an utterly homogenous population), but I also think it's perfectly reasonable to deny admission to a very selective university to a student who is utterly undistinguished in all aspects of their high-school career. Admissions to selective schools ought not become a totally random lottery. I think that removing financial gates for those students who are accepted (need blind admissions) is mandatory and effective. Going beyond that is fraught with peril I think.
  - coredog64 10y ago
    Even if your tuition to Harvard or Yale was $0/semester, you still need to live nearby to attend. And if you're going to succeed, you're not going to want to have to take a minwage job in order to eat/stay warm/have clothes. Having the money to set up a student in a completely separate apartment (or whatever) means you're more likely to be in that $125k range than not.
    - closeparen 10y ago
      This is "not even wrong." Residential life is part of the package of top-tier universities - you live in the dorms first year by default, and are usually required to. When students migrate to nearby apartments depends, and is sometimes never. Financial aid offices "meet demonstrated need" and don't typically differentiate between tuition, fees, and room and board. If a student with a full ride moves off, financial aid cuts them a check for living expenses. Sometimes this amount is calculated based on the expectation that the student will work a campus job (with govt-subsidized wages - Work Study) and sometimes not.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  Do you know what the median parent income is like for students at Stuyvesant High School?

by danhak 10y ago

esrauch 10y ago

And yet the median income of the students parents at ivy league is something like $125k while the median income in America is more like $50k right?

sokoloff 10y ago
It would be shocking to me if the profile of students applying to Ivy League schools didn't skew substantially high on median family income, highest degree attained by parents, and SAT scores. Successful parents breed (read: raise) successful children. Surely not in every case, but in aggregate. As a successful graduate of a small tech school in Cambridge, I was aided by my parents' educational bent, bias, and investments of time and money. They were aided by their parents, just as my wife and I will aid our children.
- esrauch 10y ago
  sjburt said they are less accessible to poor students, which I was defending as true.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    Is accessibility best measured by: P ( student_is_poor | student_attends_ivy ) P ( applicant_is_admitted_to_ivy | applicant_is_poor ) I take the view that the latter is the better measure, but I can see people arguing that the former has some relevance.
    - esrauch 10y ago
      The point is that both are low, I would accept the second metric and I don't think it shows what you seen to claim it does. If you take all the applications submitted, income would be positively correlated with acceptance even though it is "needs blind". Some of that is implicit, but some of it is likely explicit (admit kids who played polo over kids who worked at McDonald's if everything else is equal)
      - sokoloff 10y ago
        I agree that both are low. MIT's acceptance rate is a little under 1 in 12, and several Ivy League colleges have an even lower acceptance rate. I further agree that there is a positive correlation between income and acceptance. I further agree that there is a positive correlation between income and application. What I don't see is any productive way to 100% eradicate those correlations. I'm only familiar with the admissions policies as practiced by MIT in the late 80s and early 90s. There was explicit bias for diversity (which is good; no one wants an utterly homogenous population), but I also think it's perfectly reasonable to deny admission to a very selective university to a student who is utterly undistinguished in all aspects of their high-school career. Admissions to selective schools ought not become a totally random lottery. I think that removing financial gates for those students who are accepted (need blind admissions) is mandatory and effective. Going beyond that is fraught with peril I think.
- coredog64 10y ago
  Even if your tuition to Harvard or Yale was $0/semester, you still need to live nearby to attend. And if you're going to succeed, you're not going to want to have to take a minwage job in order to eat/stay warm/have clothes. Having the money to set up a student in a completely separate apartment (or whatever) means you're more likely to be in that $125k range than not.
  - closeparen 10y ago
    This is "not even wrong." Residential life is part of the package of top-tier universities - you live in the dorms first year by default, and are usually required to. When students migrate to nearby apartments depends, and is sometimes never. Financial aid offices "meet demonstrated need" and don't typically differentiate between tuition, fees, and room and board. If a student with a full ride moves off, financial aid cuts them a check for living expenses. Sometimes this amount is calculated based on the expectation that the student will work a campus job (with govt-subsidized wages - Work Study) and sometimes not.
tedunangst 10y ago
Do you know what the median parent income is like for students at Stuyvesant High School?