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I often hear many many people say "what you want is Software Engineering not Computer Science" and I'd say YES that's EXACTLY what I want. The problem is findin

I often hear many many people say "what you want is Software Engineering not Computer Science" and I'd say YES that's EXACTLY what I want. The problem is finding a university that will give it to you. In my opinion the field of Computer Science should be the study of abstractions, logic, derivation of algorithms, understanding the limits and possibilities of computer hardware, and programming (being the development of a real-world solution to a problem that can be run to process data). If it's not one of those items I don't think it belongs in Computer Science. Sadly, our field has been managed, since the beginning, by professors who think it's math field. That's the way I'd say most hiring managers look at it: Computer Science = Programmer. The only place this isn't paralleled is academia. So I'm perfectly fine with saying either everyone else is wrong and my definition is correct, in which case we need to seriously evaluate how Computer Science is taught in schools. Alternatively I'm wrong, in which case I'd love to attend a university that will allow me to get a bachelor's, master's, and maybe even a PhD in Software Engineering because the truth is I hate whatever it is that academia considers Computer Science but I love logic, creating solutions to problems, thinking about the limits of hardware, optimizations, and everything that goes along with it. Sadly I cannot find any university that offers this. My university offers a SE masters degree but it requires a BS in Computer Science! How ironic! But yea, I'm perfectly happy with either of those outcomes. The people who are, in my opinion wrong about what "Computer Science" is can stay in their corner and I'll stay in mine.

bsder 10y ago
> The problem is finding a university that will give it to you. Go find one of the multi-week intensive programming "camps" with a good reputation (do be careful--there's a lot of snake oil out there). That's what you want.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  The problem is that bootcamps are 3 months of "intense" and pressured learning the most marketable language at the time and as far as I know aren't accredited like regular universities. What I'd like to see exist is a 1~ year program at a real college (can be community college!) that is basically a more comprehensive and relaxed[1] version of a bootcamp. [1] I don't mean this to sound "easy", just not 8-10~ a day of work like bootcamps are.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    I'll go a step further. Right now I've created The Perfect Semester for myself. Right now I am taking: - CS280: C++/Interpretations & Composition of Programming Languages - CS288: C/Whatever random crap the professor came up with - CS252: ARM EABI Assembly/Computer Architecture - CS332: Operating Systems - IS350: An Ethics Course I'd love a college that will let me do something like this. Create a schedule for 4 years (like a normal degree) that will provide me with, you guessed it, a degree in "Software Engineering" where I learn about, you guessed it, Software. I want to learn every popular language's ins and outs. This includes, but is not limited to C, C++, Ada, Lisp, Java, C#, Python, x86/x64/arm/MIPS assembly. I'd like to be taught, not lectured to, I want to actually learn from my professors. I want to learn about software abstraction, organization, revision, and project management. I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. I'd like to learn how to use every single tool in my arsenal to solve any problem in development or in my problem domain. I want to actually build things with seasoned experts (my professors). I'd like to come out the kind of person, who when asked to solve any computer-related problem doesn't stutter but just hops right on it. I've done, to the best of my own ability, just that outside of school yet there are just some things I cannot teach myself. I love computers and I want the curriculum to mirror that. And for anyone who want's to say "oh you just want the easy way out, you just don't want to take English/Math classes because that's too hard". I've heard this many many times before. I don't want anything easy. If anything this curriculum that I want would be far harder than any CS curriculum ever before it. But it wouldn't be hard for me. Not because I know how to do all of the stuff in it, but because I love doing all of the stuff in it. These things are what I excel at doing and I strive to know as close to everything about these things as I can. Sadly, we don't really get a say in this sort of thing. My beard isn't nearly gray enough and I don't have a white coat, so in the end my opinion is unimportant.
    - bsder 10y ago
      > I want to learn every popular language's ins and outs. This includes, but is not limited to C, C++, Ada, Lisp, Java, C#, Python, x86/x64/arm/MIPS assembly. I'd like to be taught, not lectured to, I want to actually learn from my professors. I want to learn about software abstraction, organization, revision, and project management. I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. I'd like to learn how to use every single tool in my arsenal to solve any problem in development or in my problem domain. And yet the CS curriculum is exactly what you need in terms of foundation so you can learn all of that. What you are asking for is a (probably several) lifetime of information in 4 years. Wouldn't we all like this? > I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. Take the track that leads to your "Compilers" class. You will get most of the pieces you are asking for along the way. > I want to actually build things with seasoned experts (my professors). Sorry, but your seasoned experts are probably in industry, not academia. > Sadly, we don't really get a say in this sort of thing. My beard isn't nearly gray enough and I don't have a white coat, so in the end my opinion is unimportant. Sure you get a say, but those of us with experience also realize the sheer enormity of what you asked. And we greybeards don't even know ALL of that.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > That's what you want No it's not. I'd like a degree, I'd like to learn from professors how to research in this field, I'd like to publish papers, and eventually after some years in the field I want to retire and become a full time lecturer/researcher. A code-camp cannot offer me that, only a university.

bsder 10y ago

> The problem is finding a university that will give it to you. Go find one of the multi-week intensive programming "camps" with a good reputation (do be careful--there's a lot of snake oil out there). That's what you want.

sotojuan 10y ago
The problem is that bootcamps are 3 months of "intense" and pressured learning the most marketable language at the time and as far as I know aren't accredited like regular universities. What I'd like to see exist is a 1~ year program at a real college (can be community college!) that is basically a more comprehensive and relaxed[1] version of a bootcamp. [1] I don't mean this to sound "easy", just not 8-10~ a day of work like bootcamps are.
- gravypod 10y ago
  I'll go a step further. Right now I've created The Perfect Semester for myself. Right now I am taking: - CS280: C++/Interpretations & Composition of Programming Languages - CS288: C/Whatever random crap the professor came up with - CS252: ARM EABI Assembly/Computer Architecture - CS332: Operating Systems - IS350: An Ethics Course I'd love a college that will let me do something like this. Create a schedule for 4 years (like a normal degree) that will provide me with, you guessed it, a degree in "Software Engineering" where I learn about, you guessed it, Software. I want to learn every popular language's ins and outs. This includes, but is not limited to C, C++, Ada, Lisp, Java, C#, Python, x86/x64/arm/MIPS assembly. I'd like to be taught, not lectured to, I want to actually learn from my professors. I want to learn about software abstraction, organization, revision, and project management. I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. I'd like to learn how to use every single tool in my arsenal to solve any problem in development or in my problem domain. I want to actually build things with seasoned experts (my professors). I'd like to come out the kind of person, who when asked to solve any computer-related problem doesn't stutter but just hops right on it. I've done, to the best of my own ability, just that outside of school yet there are just some things I cannot teach myself. I love computers and I want the curriculum to mirror that. And for anyone who want's to say "oh you just want the easy way out, you just don't want to take English/Math classes because that's too hard". I've heard this many many times before. I don't want anything easy. If anything this curriculum that I want would be far harder than any CS curriculum ever before it. But it wouldn't be hard for me. Not because I know how to do all of the stuff in it, but because I love doing all of the stuff in it. These things are what I excel at doing and I strive to know as close to everything about these things as I can. Sadly, we don't really get a say in this sort of thing. My beard isn't nearly gray enough and I don't have a white coat, so in the end my opinion is unimportant.
  - bsder 10y ago
    > I want to learn every popular language's ins and outs. This includes, but is not limited to C, C++, Ada, Lisp, Java, C#, Python, x86/x64/arm/MIPS assembly. I'd like to be taught, not lectured to, I want to actually learn from my professors. I want to learn about software abstraction, organization, revision, and project management. I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. I'd like to learn how to use every single tool in my arsenal to solve any problem in development or in my problem domain. And yet the CS curriculum is exactly what you need in terms of foundation so you can learn all of that. What you are asking for is a (probably several) lifetime of information in 4 years. Wouldn't we all like this? > I'd like to be able to learn about ever piece of software running on a system and be taught how to implement them. Take the track that leads to your "Compilers" class. You will get most of the pieces you are asking for along the way. > I want to actually build things with seasoned experts (my professors). Sorry, but your seasoned experts are probably in industry, not academia. > Sadly, we don't really get a say in this sort of thing. My beard isn't nearly gray enough and I don't have a white coat, so in the end my opinion is unimportant. Sure you get a say, but those of us with experience also realize the sheer enormity of what you asked. And we greybeards don't even know ALL of that.
gravypod 10y ago
> That's what you want No it's not. I'd like a degree, I'd like to learn from professors how to research in this field, I'd like to publish papers, and eventually after some years in the field I want to retire and become a full time lecturer/researcher. A code-camp cannot offer me that, only a university.