4 ms·

I don't see these two goals as being mutually exclusive. Even if they are, it'd be good to aim for a balance, rather than just choosing one entirely over the ot

by autarch 10y ago

I don't see these two goals as being mutually exclusive. Even if they are, it'd be good to aim for a balance, rather than just choosing one entirely over the other. They're both good goals for a conference.

gnarbarian 10y ago
Many people don't agree with me and that's OK. I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. The number one priority should be having thought provoking, relevant, and high impact talks about technology at a technology conference. Seeing these talks and engaging in conversations about the technology should be the number one priority for attendees. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. If someone doesn't want to go to a conference on concurrency and distributed algorithms because a demographic de-jour isn't speaking then that person isn't passionate about the subject of the conference and the conference is better off without them there. That may seem harsh but I'm just throwing my opinion out there for the sake of diversity of ideas ;)
- softawre 10y ago
  Agree and up-voted. It's supposed to be about equality, right? How can we get more equal than focusing on the ideas themselves?
- rhizome 10y ago
  I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. Is it safe to say you're a member of a demographic who has never had those checkboxes applied to them negatively?
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    >Is it safe to say you're a member of a demographic who has never had those checkboxes applied to them negatively? It sure sounds like you're trying to do that right now. Can you explain to me why using race/demographics as a means to sideline and devalue my opinion isn't the highest form of hypocrisy in this context? In other words... Isn't your question a perfect example of you "applying those checkboxes" to me negatively?
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      Because you're the one saying race and demographics don't matter, yet you're likely a member of the race and demographic who hasn't had negative experiences because of their race/demographic. You don't think it's important because you've never really had to think about it.
      - gnarbarian 10y ago
        >yet you're likely a member of the race and demographic who hasn't had negative experiences because of their race/demographic. It's funny that you can say that right after someone implied I was a member of an over-represented group and then used that assumption as leverage against me in an argument. So that statement is demonstrably false.
    - rhizome 10y ago
      You don't have to be defensive, it was just a yes or no question.
- samstokes 10y ago
  I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes Then you are not the audience those "demographic checkboxes" are there for. (Neither am I.) I'm a white male engineer, and I've never had the experience of going to a tech conference and wondering whether I'm supposed to be there because I don't see anyone else who looks like me. That experience is common for engineers who are women, POC, or in various other demographics. For all I know you might be a member of one of those demographics, but if you "couldn't care less" then I assume you haven't had that experience either. That doesn't affect your right to an opinion, but it does mean you are not fully considering at least one reason that demographic diversity is important. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. I haven't met a single hacker or engineer who wasn't also a person, and other things that matter to people include feeling welcome and accepted. If you're accustomed to feeling welcome and accepted at technical conferences, it's easy to say that feeling welcome and accepted doesn't matter to you at such conferences. If most conferences didn't make you feel that way, it might matter to you more to find one that did. One way to make people feel welcome and accepted is to reduce the extent to which they feel like the "odd one out", in as many senses as possible. As autarch points out above, this isn't an argument for accepting any old talk so long as it fills some demographic quota. It would be a strange conference that replaced quality of ideas with demographic diversity in their talk selection criteria. Rather, it just means conferences have more than one criterion to optimise for. Multi-objective optimisation is complicated and involves tradeoffs, but "all or nothing" is unlikely to be optimal.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    A warm, diverse, welcoming, and accepting technical conference that contains no interesting technical content is less a technical conference and more a purely social gathering. There's really nothing wrong with that, but at that point it's no longer meaningfully a technical conference. Perhaps there's a desirable balance to be struck here.
    - samstokes 10y ago
      That was the point I attempted to convey with my last paragraph: this isn't an argument for accepting any old talk so long as it fills some demographic quota. It would be a strange conference that replaced quality of ideas with demographic diversity in their talk selection criteria. Rather, it just means conferences have more than one criterion to optimise for. Multi-objective optimisation is complicated and involves tradeoffs, but "all or nothing" is unlikely to be optimal. Hopefully we can agree that a conference which had interesting technical content and was welcoming to a broad range of people would be better than a conference that had only one or the other.

by autarch 10y ago

gnarbarian 10y ago

Many people don't agree with me and that's OK. I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. The number one priority should be having thought provoking, relevant, and high impact talks about technology at a technology conference. Seeing these talks and engaging in conversations about the technology should be the number one priority for attendees. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. If someone doesn't want to go to a conference on concurrency and distributed algorithms because a demographic de-jour isn't speaking then that person isn't passionate about the subject of the conference and the conference is better off without them there. That may seem harsh but I'm just throwing my opinion out there for the sake of diversity of ideas ;)

softawre 10y ago
Agree and up-voted. It's supposed to be about equality, right? How can we get more equal than focusing on the ideas themselves?
rhizome 10y ago
I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. Is it safe to say you're a member of a demographic who has never had those checkboxes applied to them negatively?
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  >Is it safe to say you're a member of a demographic who has never had those checkboxes applied to them negatively? It sure sounds like you're trying to do that right now. Can you explain to me why using race/demographics as a means to sideline and devalue my opinion isn't the highest form of hypocrisy in this context? In other words... Isn't your question a perfect example of you "applying those checkboxes" to me negatively?
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Because you're the one saying race and demographics don't matter, yet you're likely a member of the race and demographic who hasn't had negative experiences because of their race/demographic. You don't think it's important because you've never really had to think about it.
    - gnarbarian 10y ago
      >yet you're likely a member of the race and demographic who hasn't had negative experiences because of their race/demographic. It's funny that you can say that right after someone implied I was a member of an over-represented group and then used that assumption as leverage against me in an argument. So that statement is demonstrably false.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    You don't have to be defensive, it was just a yes or no question.
samstokes 10y ago
I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes Then you are not the audience those "demographic checkboxes" are there for. (Neither am I.) I'm a white male engineer, and I've never had the experience of going to a tech conference and wondering whether I'm supposed to be there because I don't see anyone else who looks like me. That experience is common for engineers who are women, POC, or in various other demographics. For all I know you might be a member of one of those demographics, but if you "couldn't care less" then I assume you haven't had that experience either. That doesn't affect your right to an opinion, but it does mean you are not fully considering at least one reason that demographic diversity is important. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. I haven't met a single hacker or engineer who wasn't also a person, and other things that matter to people include feeling welcome and accepted. If you're accustomed to feeling welcome and accepted at technical conferences, it's easy to say that feeling welcome and accepted doesn't matter to you at such conferences. If most conferences didn't make you feel that way, it might matter to you more to find one that did. One way to make people feel welcome and accepted is to reduce the extent to which they feel like the "odd one out", in as many senses as possible. As autarch points out above, this isn't an argument for accepting any old talk so long as it fills some demographic quota. It would be a strange conference that replaced quality of ideas with demographic diversity in their talk selection criteria. Rather, it just means conferences have more than one criterion to optimise for. Multi-objective optimisation is complicated and involves tradeoffs, but "all or nothing" is unlikely to be optimal.
- Kalium 10y ago
  A warm, diverse, welcoming, and accepting technical conference that contains no interesting technical content is less a technical conference and more a purely social gathering. There's really nothing wrong with that, but at that point it's no longer meaningfully a technical conference. Perhaps there's a desirable balance to be struck here.
  - samstokes 10y ago
    That was the point I attempted to convey with my last paragraph: this isn't an argument for accepting any old talk so long as it fills some demographic quota. It would be a strange conference that replaced quality of ideas with demographic diversity in their talk selection criteria. Rather, it just means conferences have more than one criterion to optimise for. Multi-objective optimisation is complicated and involves tradeoffs, but "all or nothing" is unlikely to be optimal. Hopefully we can agree that a conference which had interesting technical content and was welcoming to a broad range of people would be better than a conference that had only one or the other.