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Just adding to this, claiming that a democratic election is rigged is one of Umberto Eco's 14 signs of Ur-Fascism [0]: > Wherever a politician casts doubt on t

by amyjess 10y ago

Just adding to this, claiming that a democratic election is rigged is one of Umberto Eco's 14 signs of Ur-Fascism [0]: > Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism. [0] http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

virgil_disgr4ce 10y ago
Awesome find. Sharing this.
- amyjess 10y ago
  You're welcome! You might also be interested in some analyses I found of how these points apply to Trump. Unfortunately some of these links are a few months old so they don't mention some more recent events (the second debate gave us plenty of more material for #3 and #14 and probably others, and the whole thing with the tape and the sexual assault allegations adds fuel to #12): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175456 http://lithub.com/umberto-eco-on-donald-trump-14-ways-of-looking-at-a-fascist/ http://lithub.com/umberto-eco-on-donald-trump-14-ways-of-loo... https://warisboring.com/yes-trump-is-a-fascist-heres-the-checklist-1920ad4d8163 https://warisboring.com/yes-trump-is-a-fascist-heres-the-che... http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/10/fascism/502841/ http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/10/fascism/502841/ (and if I find more within the edit window, I'll add them)
  - ScottBurson 10y ago
    If I may offer one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175380
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
grey-area 10y ago
This is a wonderful and frightening summary of what makes fascism so superficially attractive and easy to slip into. Another point relevant to the current debate: For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. Those on both sides of this debate who seek to silence and ostracise their opponents should rethink that position.
jimmydddd 10y ago
Just curious why everyone loves throwing around the term "fascist" so much. Why not use more precise language to describe what you dislike about a candidate? The term seems ambiguous, and no one seems to have a clear definition of what it is. At most, there seems to be some related factors. For example, my image of Fascists is that they heavily promote war and expanding the empire. But, in contrast, the "fascist" candidate in this election wants to reduce our military footprint, and have other countries defend themselves.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  This is hardly a mystery: Because language is powerful and the vast majority of people are too stupid and lazy to do anything but absorb the positive/negative valence of the term being used. The redefinition and stretching of terms is hardly a new thing. Just because Stalin was famous for Orwellian use of language doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at pretty much every level of politics even in relatively well functioning political systems.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  Did you even bother to read the article? You say that you think the term is ambiguous and this article is here exactly for the purpose of elucidating the idea of Fascism as it appears in it's obvious and not so obvious forms. You say people are quick to throw around the term, yet you're equally quick to disregard those who see some very obvious similarities between Trump's style of campaigning and the rise of various fascist leaders. These clues are not subtle in Trump's case. It's mind boggling to think that people do not see them. It's like watching Blue's Clues with the audience of children yelling "THE CLUE IS RIGHT THERE!" and Steve is completely oblivious for the whole episode. In the end Blue dies because Steve is ignorant. Blue is our Democracy. You are Steve.
- drodgers 10y ago
  Maybe the term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, but I don't think so. The particular fascistic ideas Drumpf's movement expresses are: * Nationalism * A notion of racial or ethnic purity (see for example, the 2nd-generation American judge who wasn't *really* American because of his Mexican heritage) * Attraction to 'strong' leadership * The concept of a natural aristocracy (eg. based on race or national identity) * A theory of historical decline, often combined with a promise of some great destiny (make America great *again*) * High praise for cultural traditions of the in-group (divided on racial, ethnic or national lines). This can make it easy to confuse facism with conservatism, but for non-facist conservatives, ethnic divisiveness isn't a desirable goal. * Localist perspective on all issues (no tendency towards globalism or universalism). Only the interest of the in-group are considered. * Strong masculine/feminine divide. Particular emphasis on masculine qualities for the state and its leaders. I've seen some journalists using the word 'Authoritarian' to try do work-around the overuse of 'Facist', but that's actually less precise accurate: authoritarianism doesn't entail the kinds of ethnic purity ideology which is critical to fascism (and Drumpf).
Natsu 10y ago
> Just adding to this, claiming that a democratic election is rigged is one of Umberto Eco's 14 signs of Ur-Fascism Would you also apply this to Al Gore's complains back in 2000? Why or why not?

by amyjess 10y ago

virgil_disgr4ce 10y ago

Awesome find. Sharing this.

amyjess 10y ago
You're welcome! You might also be interested in some analyses I found of how these points apply to Trump. Unfortunately some of these links are a few months old so they don't mention some more recent events (the second debate gave us plenty of more material for #3 and #14 and probably others, and the whole thing with the tape and the sexual assault allegations adds fuel to #12): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175456 http://lithub.com/umberto-eco-on-donald-trump-14-ways-of-looking-at-a-fascist/ http://lithub.com/umberto-eco-on-donald-trump-14-ways-of-loo... https://warisboring.com/yes-trump-is-a-fascist-heres-the-checklist-1920ad4d8163 https://warisboring.com/yes-trump-is-a-fascist-heres-the-che... http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/10/fascism/502841/ http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/10/fascism/502841/ (and if I find more within the edit window, I'll add them)
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  If I may offer one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12175380
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

grey-area 10y ago

This is a wonderful and frightening summary of what makes fascism so superficially attractive and easy to slip into. Another point relevant to the current debate: For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. Those on both sides of this debate who seek to silence and ostracise their opponents should rethink that position.

jimmydddd 10y ago

Just curious why everyone loves throwing around the term "fascist" so much. Why not use more precise language to describe what you dislike about a candidate? The term seems ambiguous, and no one seems to have a clear definition of what it is. At most, there seems to be some related factors. For example, my image of Fascists is that they heavily promote war and expanding the empire. But, in contrast, the "fascist" candidate in this election wants to reduce our military footprint, and have other countries defend themselves.

wutbrodo 10y ago
This is hardly a mystery: Because language is powerful and the vast majority of people are too stupid and lazy to do anything but absorb the positive/negative valence of the term being used. The redefinition and stretching of terms is hardly a new thing. Just because Stalin was famous for Orwellian use of language doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at pretty much every level of politics even in relatively well functioning political systems.
RandomInteger4 10y ago
Did you even bother to read the article? You say that you think the term is ambiguous and this article is here exactly for the purpose of elucidating the idea of Fascism as it appears in it's obvious and not so obvious forms. You say people are quick to throw around the term, yet you're equally quick to disregard those who see some very obvious similarities between Trump's style of campaigning and the rise of various fascist leaders. These clues are not subtle in Trump's case. It's mind boggling to think that people do not see them. It's like watching Blue's Clues with the audience of children yelling "THE CLUE IS RIGHT THERE!" and Steve is completely oblivious for the whole episode. In the end Blue dies because Steve is ignorant. Blue is our Democracy. You are Steve.
drodgers 10y ago
Maybe the term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, but I don't think so. The particular fascistic ideas Drumpf's movement expresses are: * Nationalism * A notion of racial or ethnic purity (see for example, the 2nd-generation American judge who wasn't *really* American because of his Mexican heritage) * Attraction to 'strong' leadership * The concept of a natural aristocracy (eg. based on race or national identity) * A theory of historical decline, often combined with a promise of some great destiny (make America great *again*) * High praise for cultural traditions of the in-group (divided on racial, ethnic or national lines). This can make it easy to confuse facism with conservatism, but for non-facist conservatives, ethnic divisiveness isn't a desirable goal. * Localist perspective on all issues (no tendency towards globalism or universalism). Only the interest of the in-group are considered. * Strong masculine/feminine divide. Particular emphasis on masculine qualities for the state and its leaders. I've seen some journalists using the word 'Authoritarian' to try do work-around the overuse of 'Facist', but that's actually less precise accurate: authoritarianism doesn't entail the kinds of ethnic purity ideology which is critical to fascism (and Drumpf).

Natsu 10y ago

> Just adding to this, claiming that a democratic election is rigged is one of Umberto Eco's 14 signs of Ur-Fascism Would you also apply this to Al Gore's complains back in 2000? Why or why not?