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There's a possible ugly 5th heartbreaker: "we love your topic and experience but you look too old and unhip for our hip frontend conference". I've been rejecte

There's a possible ugly 5th heartbreaker: "we love your topic and experience but you look too old and unhip for our hip frontend conference". I've been rejected for conferences where every speaker that was accepted looked well under 30. At the least, no one had grey hair. It's frustrating to me because the very same conferences are highly vocal about seeking diversity, and do usually end up with some gender diversity (although non-Asian/non-White speakers are almost always poorly represented). But there's no age diversity: everyone on stage is between 20-30, or else goes to a plastic surgeon and dresses to look that age.

draw_down 10y ago
Yes, no one really wants to talk about the ageism thing. I'm not sure how much the plastic surgery thing actually happens in real life, but I too find it frustrating and sad how it's never included in the topic of diversity. It's a problem that literally everyone who sticks around long enough will gave to contend with.
exolymph 10y ago
Reminds me of this heartbreaking Bloomberg Businessweek piece: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/silicon-valley-s-job-hungry-say-we-re-not-to-old-for-this http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/silicon-va... > One 60-year-old software engineer, fired in January after seven years at a chipmaker in San Jose, now wears casual button-downs, khakis, and sneakers to interviews, studies embedded systems (cell phones, video game consoles) at a local extension school, and has started working out and dyeing his gray hair a dark auburn. He also had blepharoplasty, plastic surgery to remove bags and dark circles under his eyes. “It’s smart to stay current and look as young as possible if you want to keep working in an industry where so many people are in their 20s,” he says. “I still want to work in tech, because I love solving problems. And I don’t yet have enough saved for retirement.”
- biztos 10y ago
  Well at least it got him to start working out. /rimshot
GarrisonPrime 10y ago
Marketing is key, in any industry. People are run by emotion, including social cues, much more than they'd like to admit. People want to feel like the thing they are discussing is relevant to themselves, so they prefer insular groups that confirm their fantasy. A greying middle-aged guy in a suit doesn't stroke the ego of the exuberant youth. At the end of the day, people want a movie that reaffirms their personal views more than they want a quality constructed film. They want music that triggers their own pet emotions, not a technically clever composition. And they want a friend, not a coworker.
- BigJono 10y ago
  Which is strange, really. I can't speak for every mid-20s guy, but I'd personally be much more interested in seeing a relatively unknown industry veteran get up to talk about something interesting than see hip funny JS talk #38292 from some guy in a humorous T-shirt.
gnarbarian 10y ago
Totally agree. I've noticed something else similarly disturbing. The people who advocate the loudest for demographic diversity aren't really interested in diversity of ideas. They want to see men and women of all shapes and colors saying similar things. If you want thought provoking talks, diversity of ideas is far more important than having a group of speakers that looks like captain planet and the planeteers. I want to see talks where presentors have radically different approaches to problems. I want to see Zed Shaw and Douglas Crockford have a passionate explitive laden argument about the merits of Ruby vs server side JS only to see Ken Thompson or Rob Pike blow their minds with a talk about go. So what if they all happen to be white guys. What matters is they have interesting things to say and vastly different perspectives coming from long careers in the industry honing their craft.
- autarch 10y ago
  I don't see these two goals as being mutually exclusive. Even if they are, it'd be good to aim for a balance, rather than just choosing one entirely over the other. They're both good goals for a conference.
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    Many people don't agree with me and that's OK. I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. The number one priority should be having thought provoking, relevant, and high impact talks about technology at a technology conference. Seeing these talks and engaging in conversations about the technology should be the number one priority for attendees. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. If someone doesn't want to go to a conference on concurrency and distributed algorithms because a demographic de-jour isn't speaking then that person isn't passionate about the subject of the conference and the conference is better off without them there. That may seem harsh but I'm just throwing my opinion out there for the sake of diversity of ideas ;)
    - softawre 10y ago
      Agree and up-voted. It's supposed to be about equality, right? How can we get more equal than focusing on the ideas themselves?
repler 10y ago
People are also pretty enamored lately with the idea of the perfect "Code of Conduct" for their conferences. (Completely ignoring that local, state, and federal laws all already exist to handle all of it.)
- autarch 10y ago
  > (Completely ignoring that local, state, and federal laws all already exist to handle all of it.) Except that they don't. If I walk around a conference saying that all the women at this event are filthy whores who should go back to the kitchen, what law am I breaking? Do you really think that's acceptable behavior at a conference?
  - ergo14 10y ago
    Did you ever actually see anything like that? Because I've been attending to many of IT conferences and never ever seen something even remotely close. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassmen... - here is a very reasonable CoC that mostly deal with behavior that is actually law breaking. https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
    - repler 10y ago
      I know you weren't replying to me but I've never seen it. I also would never condone that kind of behavior, or even be associated with people who did that. Someone actually flagged my comment, which to me is pretty jaw dropping. This isn't a topic we can discuss? Okay.
      - ergo14 10y ago
        Only diversity in looks and skin color is endorsed. Not the diversity of ideas (at least when it comes to online discussions on the subject) or backgrounds or experiences ;-) Which seems to be the opposite of what the original goal was i think.

draw_down 10y ago

Yes, no one really wants to talk about the ageism thing. I'm not sure how much the plastic surgery thing actually happens in real life, but I too find it frustrating and sad how it's never included in the topic of diversity. It's a problem that literally everyone who sticks around long enough will gave to contend with.

exolymph 10y ago

Reminds me of this heartbreaking Bloomberg Businessweek piece: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/silicon-valley-s-job-hungry-say-we-re-not-to-old-for-this http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/silicon-va... > One 60-year-old software engineer, fired in January after seven years at a chipmaker in San Jose, now wears casual button-downs, khakis, and sneakers to interviews, studies embedded systems (cell phones, video game consoles) at a local extension school, and has started working out and dyeing his gray hair a dark auburn. He also had blepharoplasty, plastic surgery to remove bags and dark circles under his eyes. “It’s smart to stay current and look as young as possible if you want to keep working in an industry where so many people are in their 20s,” he says. “I still want to work in tech, because I love solving problems. And I don’t yet have enough saved for retirement.”

biztos 10y ago
Well at least it got him to start working out. /rimshot

GarrisonPrime 10y ago

Marketing is key, in any industry. People are run by emotion, including social cues, much more than they'd like to admit. People want to feel like the thing they are discussing is relevant to themselves, so they prefer insular groups that confirm their fantasy. A greying middle-aged guy in a suit doesn't stroke the ego of the exuberant youth. At the end of the day, people want a movie that reaffirms their personal views more than they want a quality constructed film. They want music that triggers their own pet emotions, not a technically clever composition. And they want a friend, not a coworker.

BigJono 10y ago
Which is strange, really. I can't speak for every mid-20s guy, but I'd personally be much more interested in seeing a relatively unknown industry veteran get up to talk about something interesting than see hip funny JS talk #38292 from some guy in a humorous T-shirt.

gnarbarian 10y ago

Totally agree. I've noticed something else similarly disturbing. The people who advocate the loudest for demographic diversity aren't really interested in diversity of ideas. They want to see men and women of all shapes and colors saying similar things. If you want thought provoking talks, diversity of ideas is far more important than having a group of speakers that looks like captain planet and the planeteers. I want to see talks where presentors have radically different approaches to problems. I want to see Zed Shaw and Douglas Crockford have a passionate explitive laden argument about the merits of Ruby vs server side JS only to see Ken Thompson or Rob Pike blow their minds with a talk about go. So what if they all happen to be white guys. What matters is they have interesting things to say and vastly different perspectives coming from long careers in the industry honing their craft.

autarch 10y ago
I don't see these two goals as being mutually exclusive. Even if they are, it'd be good to aim for a balance, rather than just choosing one entirely over the other. They're both good goals for a conference.
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  Many people don't agree with me and that's OK. I literally couldn't care less about demographic checkboxes when listening to a talk about technology. The number one priority should be having thought provoking, relevant, and high impact talks about technology at a technology conference. Seeing these talks and engaging in conversations about the technology should be the number one priority for attendees. Ideas are what matter to hackers and engineers. If someone doesn't want to go to a conference on concurrency and distributed algorithms because a demographic de-jour isn't speaking then that person isn't passionate about the subject of the conference and the conference is better off without them there. That may seem harsh but I'm just throwing my opinion out there for the sake of diversity of ideas ;)
  - softawre 10y ago
    Agree and up-voted. It's supposed to be about equality, right? How can we get more equal than focusing on the ideas themselves?

repler 10y ago

People are also pretty enamored lately with the idea of the perfect "Code of Conduct" for their conferences. (Completely ignoring that local, state, and federal laws all already exist to handle all of it.)

autarch 10y ago
> (Completely ignoring that local, state, and federal laws all already exist to handle all of it.) Except that they don't. If I walk around a conference saying that all the women at this event are filthy whores who should go back to the kitchen, what law am I breaking? Do you really think that's acceptable behavior at a conference?
- ergo14 10y ago
  Did you ever actually see anything like that? Because I've been attending to many of IT conferences and never ever seen something even remotely close. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassmen... - here is a very reasonable CoC that mostly deal with behavior that is actually law breaking. https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
  - repler 10y ago
    I know you weren't replying to me but I've never seen it. I also would never condone that kind of behavior, or even be associated with people who did that. Someone actually flagged my comment, which to me is pretty jaw dropping. This isn't a topic we can discuss? Okay.
    - ergo14 10y ago
      Only diversity in looks and skin color is endorsed. Not the diversity of ideas (at least when it comes to online discussions on the subject) or backgrounds or experiences ;-) Which seems to be the opposite of what the original goal was i think.