5 ms·

It would be interesting to see some color map for each of those groups. Also, do parents who moved abroad have kids with different perception? And would have a

It would be interesting to see some color map for each of those groups. Also, do parents who moved abroad have kids with different perception? And would have analysis in some genetic factors (as babies seem to indicate) and the cultural influence.

moron4hire 10y ago
It's not a difference in perception, it's a difference in communication. Imagine a room full of people wearing "pink" shirts, and you want to call out specifically one of those people, but you don't know the word "salmon" in the context of a color of shirt. You absolutely see the difference in the colors of the shirt. Your lack of language does not change your perception. You know the color and you could pick it again when asked. You just have to go through convolutions to communicate the exact nature of the color to others.
- OJFord 10y ago
  We absolutely can differ in perception. As long as the boundaries are the same we can perceive something different, call it the same, and never be confused; all the while 'seeing' a completely different colour to one another.
  - moron4hire 10y ago
    Meaningless distinction
    - OJFord 10y ago
      How so? I'm colour-blind (a bit red-green, a bit other things) - that's a blurring of boundaries; so we absolutely will disagree on what a colour is (though oddly I can literally see colours change in front of me once I 'know'). Why is it so implausible that people may have the same boundaries, but with things swapped such that they experience a different 'colour', say what you see to be 'blue', every time that you say 'red'? They'll still call it 'red'. You'll agree every time you see it.
- SamBam 10y ago
  The linguistic relativist's position (Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is specifically that people with different color words perceive colors differently. It's mostly discredited now, but that's exactly the position being discussed in the article.
  - tetromino_ 10y ago
    > It's mostly discredited now Unjustly so. There is experimental evidence that at least in for some languages and some colors, language affects the ability to distinguish colors. Here is one example: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.short http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.short > English and Russian color terms divide the color spectrum differently. Unlike English, Russian makes an obligatory distinction between lighter blues (“goluboy”) and darker blues (“siniy”). We investigated whether this linguistic difference leads to differences in color discrimination. We tested English and Russian speakers in a speeded color discrimination task using blue stimuli that spanned the siniy/goluboy border. We found that Russian speakers were faster to discriminate two colors when they fell into different linguistic categories in Russian (one siniy and the other goluboy) than when they were from the same linguistic category (both siniy or both goluboy). Moreover, this category advantage was eliminated by a verbal, but not a spatial, dual task. These effects were stronger for difficult discriminations (i.e., when the colors were perceptually close) than for easy discriminations (i.e., when the colors were further apart). English speakers tested on the identical stimuli did not show a category advantage in any of the conditions. These results demonstrate that (i) categories in language affect performance on simple perceptual color tasks and (ii) the effect of language is online (and can be disrupted by verbal interference).
  - int_19h 10y ago
    Not quite. The position being discussed in the article is a more nuanced revival, in that not having a distinct word doesn't prevent one from distinguishing the color, but having the word does affect behavior (speed of distinction, grouping of colors where it's called for, association of colors with other things etc).
- woliveirajr 10y ago
  But the article states that even babies, who don't express those knowledge verbally, can have different reaction. In my experience, sample size=1, you don't talk that much with a baby about colors. The article doesn't explain details, and that made me wonder: is this genetic? Cultural? How does it goes when the parents have different cultures? Moving to another city/country changes that? Being in a nursery with caregivers of the same/different culture? Once I read a discussion about teaching your child colors, and how some take longer to differentiate colors from the object, so that color is an attribute and not _the_ object. That's where this caught my attention.

moron4hire 10y ago

It's not a difference in perception, it's a difference in communication. Imagine a room full of people wearing "pink" shirts, and you want to call out specifically one of those people, but you don't know the word "salmon" in the context of a color of shirt. You absolutely see the difference in the colors of the shirt. Your lack of language does not change your perception. You know the color and you could pick it again when asked. You just have to go through convolutions to communicate the exact nature of the color to others.

OJFord 10y ago
We absolutely can differ in perception. As long as the boundaries are the same we can perceive something different, call it the same, and never be confused; all the while 'seeing' a completely different colour to one another.
- moron4hire 10y ago
  Meaningless distinction
  - OJFord 10y ago
    How so? I'm colour-blind (a bit red-green, a bit other things) - that's a blurring of boundaries; so we absolutely will disagree on what a colour is (though oddly I can literally see colours change in front of me once I 'know'). Why is it so implausible that people may have the same boundaries, but with things swapped such that they experience a different 'colour', say what you see to be 'blue', every time that you say 'red'? They'll still call it 'red'. You'll agree every time you see it.
SamBam 10y ago
The linguistic relativist's position (Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is specifically that people with different color words perceive colors differently. It's mostly discredited now, but that's exactly the position being discussed in the article.
- tetromino_ 10y ago
  > It's mostly discredited now Unjustly so. There is experimental evidence that at least in for some languages and some colors, language affects the ability to distinguish colors. Here is one example: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.short http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.short > English and Russian color terms divide the color spectrum differently. Unlike English, Russian makes an obligatory distinction between lighter blues (“goluboy”) and darker blues (“siniy”). We investigated whether this linguistic difference leads to differences in color discrimination. We tested English and Russian speakers in a speeded color discrimination task using blue stimuli that spanned the siniy/goluboy border. We found that Russian speakers were faster to discriminate two colors when they fell into different linguistic categories in Russian (one siniy and the other goluboy) than when they were from the same linguistic category (both siniy or both goluboy). Moreover, this category advantage was eliminated by a verbal, but not a spatial, dual task. These effects were stronger for difficult discriminations (i.e., when the colors were perceptually close) than for easy discriminations (i.e., when the colors were further apart). English speakers tested on the identical stimuli did not show a category advantage in any of the conditions. These results demonstrate that (i) categories in language affect performance on simple perceptual color tasks and (ii) the effect of language is online (and can be disrupted by verbal interference).
- int_19h 10y ago
  Not quite. The position being discussed in the article is a more nuanced revival, in that not having a distinct word doesn't prevent one from distinguishing the color, but having the word does affect behavior (speed of distinction, grouping of colors where it's called for, association of colors with other things etc).
woliveirajr 10y ago
But the article states that even babies, who don't express those knowledge verbally, can have different reaction. In my experience, sample size=1, you don't talk that much with a baby about colors. The article doesn't explain details, and that made me wonder: is this genetic? Cultural? How does it goes when the parents have different cultures? Moving to another city/country changes that? Being in a nursery with caregivers of the same/different culture? Once I read a discussion about teaching your child colors, and how some take longer to differentiate colors from the object, so that color is an attribute and not _the_ object. That's where this caught my attention.