4 ms·

>The real story here is the forced updates. How do people who are planning demos and presentations handle this? It's my worst nightmare. Manually run the updat

>The real story here is the forced updates. How do people who are planning demos and presentations handle this? It's my worst nightmare. Manually run the update check every 2-3 days and run it again two hours before the presentation. Any updates that come out in that two hour window will allow you at least one delay. Come on, folks, this isn't exactly rocket science here. Keep your OS up to date and, surprisingly enough, you won't have any problems caused by it being not up to date. EDIT: May I also remind everyone that your corporate IT security policy almost certainly requires you to keep the OS on your work PCs up to date?

cesarb 10y ago
> and run it again two hours before the presentation. Wouldn't two hours be too short to fix any problems caused by the update?
roblabla 10y ago
OS updates (or any update that potentially takes more than 2 minutes) shouldn't ever be forced. It's just terrible. Sure, there should be some prominant prompts saying "Plz update me" from time to time (so the average joe's computer isn't terribly out of date). But don't force me to update in the middle of prez. Because clearly, I'm best placed to know what's the best time for my computer to become an expensive paperweight.
- acdha 10y ago
  The problem is that if you don't make them automatic, people won't install them. Microsoft spent most of the Windows XP era with people being bitten by problems which had been patched in many cases years before. The approach they've taken of making things mandatory is clearly not universally popular but most of the arguments about it tend to ignore the fact that it was designed to solve a very real problem which affected millions of people.
  - roblabla 10y ago
    And yet macos doesn't have forced updates. They just prompt the user (with a very in-your-face message) and people DO update. Same with linux. Same with android. Same with IOS. If you prompt the user to update, they generally will.
    - acdha 10y ago
      That's technically true but not true in real life for most people. Yes, you can ignore the notice for awhile but fairly soon you'll reach the point where something like iTunes requires a newer release or you need to upgrade iOS/Android because an app developer made the business decision that using a new API offers more benefits than supporting legacy devices. There are two reasons why this works out better. One is that the non-Microsoft world isn't dominated by enterprise IT departments demanding binary compatibility with antique code; the second is that those platforms have spent many years building trust that major upgrades won't prevent you from working. In the case of Windows, that was complicated by charging for updates and the broken IT culture which resisted them amplified with the rough Windows Vista release cycle causing many people to avoid it for a decade.
hedora 10y ago
It is seriously that bad now? You have to touch windows update three times a week?!? That sounds like an even bigger time sink than the whole "find a new Debian derivative because Unity breaks the alt key, and systemd breaks everything else" thing.
- witty_username 10y ago
  You don't need to switch distros to install other desktop environments. What did systemd break?
  - 9mit3t2m9h9a 10y ago
    In this specific context I'd guess startx/xinit
ramy_d 10y ago
What if the update goes badly and locks the machine two hours before your presentation? Your post is probably the worst excuse for this behaviour I have yet to read and its frustrating, on so many levels, to see it being excused.
- GrumpyYoungMan 10y ago
  What if your laptop battery catches fire two hours before your presentation? It's just about as likely. I am surprised to be asked by adults to think of a solution to a broken laptop given two whole hours in which to find a solution. (Hint: borrow somebody else's laptop.)
  - ramy_d 10y ago
    Laptop batteries catching fire are such a rare and dramatic occurrence. A simple battery is much more likely in which case you should have come prepared with your charging cable, a very reasonable mitigation scenario. The difference here is agency - a user is empowered to bring the tools to ensure a best case scenario. When your OS decides restart time is NOW, you are not empowered. Quite the opposite. Software is meant to serve us, not the other way around. Updates can wait for when we're ready, it's a purely coded decision to resolve otherwise. There is no value, worth, expertise, or pride to be extracted from being a slave to your machine which makes it all the more stunning that this is still happening to people today and that people like you can excuse it.
jongalloway2 10y ago
I do a lot of presentations, and I'm on the Windows Insiders Fast Ring, meaning I get a new build about weekly, hence a lot more Windows Updates. I check for and install updates as part of my preparations before presenting. I've been doing this for years, on every operating system I present on (yay xcode updates over hotel wifi!). I've never had a problem with unexpected OS updates, because I run them explicitly. I do the same for frameworks and IDEs I'll be demonstrating. I'm surprised someone doing a presentation wouldn't make sure their software was up to date before doing a presentation, honestly. Not just because it makes sure you know the state of your software stack, but because you'll know if - for whatever reason - your demonstrations don't work or work differently on the latest software release. End to end tech checks (including your software stack) is just part of respecting your audience. I think some people run into surprise software updates because they do demonstrations on a virtual machine. I don't think that's a good idea, but if you're going to present on VM images, it's just good practice to test out your environment before you present on it. Note: I'm not making any statement here about how I think software updates should be installed or how Windows works. I've blogged about controlling Windows Updates over the years, here's a post from a decade ago: https://weblogs.asp.net/jongalloway/438009 https://weblogs.asp.net/jongalloway/438009. This comment is about how I make sure, as a developer and presenter, that software updates don't affect my presentations. Disclaimer: Microsoft employee, Nazgûl
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  You work for an OS company. Your experience is by no means universal. Your way out on the far side of the bell-curve by about several light years. What about non-tech savvy people who expect a computer to work like an appliance and "the bloody uupdate broke my presentation software". The problem with the world today is there are too many bloody software dwvelopers, too many who seem so keen on sacrificing stability and compatibility with "The Next Thing". As someone who works with computers and machines in a fabrication shop that, CNC machines that have never had a software update but they still work day in day out, and UI element that don't move or disappear on a weekly basis, I have to say my personal experience of smartphones and computers (Mac, Windows, Linux) is this: OH MY FUCKING GOD WHY DID THEY CHANGE THAT. WHY DOES IT DO THAT. STOP CHANGING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME. Yep, computers are huge piles of black-box shit to the average person, who expects their computer to be more like an appliance.
khedoros1 10y ago
> Manually run the update check every 2-3 days and run it again two hours before the presentation. Any updates that come out in that two hour window will allow you at least one delay. OK, it's possible to work around if you take special care. No one should have to pay that much attention to their update schedule. > Keep your OS up to date and, surprisingly enough, you won't have any problems caused by it being not up to date. The problem isn't caused by the machine being not up to date. It's caused by Microsoft requiring forced updates. The computer doing something disruptive that I didn't ask it to do is something that I associate with malicious software; it shouldn't be something that I expect from my OS. > EDIT: May I also remind everyone that your corporate IT security policy almost certainly requires you to keep the OS on your work PCs up to date? They do. I typically have 2 weeks of warning, and the chance to update anytime within that time period. I am warned repeatedly as the day approaches that the computer will restart on its own. Patch sets are released monthly, so it's not particularly onerous.

cesarb 10y ago

> and run it again two hours before the presentation. Wouldn't two hours be too short to fix any problems caused by the update?

roblabla 10y ago

OS updates (or any update that potentially takes more than 2 minutes) shouldn't ever be forced. It's just terrible. Sure, there should be some prominant prompts saying "Plz update me" from time to time (so the average joe's computer isn't terribly out of date). But don't force me to update in the middle of prez. Because clearly, I'm best placed to know what's the best time for my computer to become an expensive paperweight.

acdha 10y ago
The problem is that if you don't make them automatic, people won't install them. Microsoft spent most of the Windows XP era with people being bitten by problems which had been patched in many cases years before. The approach they've taken of making things mandatory is clearly not universally popular but most of the arguments about it tend to ignore the fact that it was designed to solve a very real problem which affected millions of people.
- roblabla 10y ago
  And yet macos doesn't have forced updates. They just prompt the user (with a very in-your-face message) and people DO update. Same with linux. Same with android. Same with IOS. If you prompt the user to update, they generally will.
  - acdha 10y ago
    That's technically true but not true in real life for most people. Yes, you can ignore the notice for awhile but fairly soon you'll reach the point where something like iTunes requires a newer release or you need to upgrade iOS/Android because an app developer made the business decision that using a new API offers more benefits than supporting legacy devices. There are two reasons why this works out better. One is that the non-Microsoft world isn't dominated by enterprise IT departments demanding binary compatibility with antique code; the second is that those platforms have spent many years building trust that major upgrades won't prevent you from working. In the case of Windows, that was complicated by charging for updates and the broken IT culture which resisted them amplified with the rough Windows Vista release cycle causing many people to avoid it for a decade.

hedora 10y ago

It is seriously that bad now? You have to touch windows update three times a week?!? That sounds like an even bigger time sink than the whole "find a new Debian derivative because Unity breaks the alt key, and systemd breaks everything else" thing.

witty_username 10y ago
You don't need to switch distros to install other desktop environments. What did systemd break?
- 9mit3t2m9h9a 10y ago
  In this specific context I'd guess startx/xinit

ramy_d 10y ago

What if the update goes badly and locks the machine two hours before your presentation? Your post is probably the worst excuse for this behaviour I have yet to read and its frustrating, on so many levels, to see it being excused.

GrumpyYoungMan 10y ago
What if your laptop battery catches fire two hours before your presentation? It's just about as likely. I am surprised to be asked by adults to think of a solution to a broken laptop given two whole hours in which to find a solution. (Hint: borrow somebody else's laptop.)
- ramy_d 10y ago
  Laptop batteries catching fire are such a rare and dramatic occurrence. A simple battery is much more likely in which case you should have come prepared with your charging cable, a very reasonable mitigation scenario. The difference here is agency - a user is empowered to bring the tools to ensure a best case scenario. When your OS decides restart time is NOW, you are not empowered. Quite the opposite. Software is meant to serve us, not the other way around. Updates can wait for when we're ready, it's a purely coded decision to resolve otherwise. There is no value, worth, expertise, or pride to be extracted from being a slave to your machine which makes it all the more stunning that this is still happening to people today and that people like you can excuse it.

jongalloway2 10y ago

I do a lot of presentations, and I'm on the Windows Insiders Fast Ring, meaning I get a new build about weekly, hence a lot more Windows Updates. I check for and install updates as part of my preparations before presenting. I've been doing this for years, on every operating system I present on (yay xcode updates over hotel wifi!). I've never had a problem with unexpected OS updates, because I run them explicitly. I do the same for frameworks and IDEs I'll be demonstrating. I'm surprised someone doing a presentation wouldn't make sure their software was up to date before doing a presentation, honestly. Not just because it makes sure you know the state of your software stack, but because you'll know if - for whatever reason - your demonstrations don't work or work differently on the latest software release. End to end tech checks (including your software stack) is just part of respecting your audience. I think some people run into surprise software updates because they do demonstrations on a virtual machine. I don't think that's a good idea, but if you're going to present on VM images, it's just good practice to test out your environment before you present on it. Note: I'm not making any statement here about how I think software updates should be installed or how Windows works. I've blogged about controlling Windows Updates over the years, here's a post from a decade ago: https://weblogs.asp.net/jongalloway/438009 https://weblogs.asp.net/jongalloway/438009. This comment is about how I make sure, as a developer and presenter, that software updates don't affect my presentations. Disclaimer: Microsoft employee, Nazgûl

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
You work for an OS company. Your experience is by no means universal. Your way out on the far side of the bell-curve by about several light years. What about non-tech savvy people who expect a computer to work like an appliance and "the bloody uupdate broke my presentation software". The problem with the world today is there are too many bloody software dwvelopers, too many who seem so keen on sacrificing stability and compatibility with "The Next Thing". As someone who works with computers and machines in a fabrication shop that, CNC machines that have never had a software update but they still work day in day out, and UI element that don't move or disappear on a weekly basis, I have to say my personal experience of smartphones and computers (Mac, Windows, Linux) is this: OH MY FUCKING GOD WHY DID THEY CHANGE THAT. WHY DOES IT DO THAT. STOP CHANGING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME. Yep, computers are huge piles of black-box shit to the average person, who expects their computer to be more like an appliance.

khedoros1 10y ago

> Manually run the update check every 2-3 days and run it again two hours before the presentation. Any updates that come out in that two hour window will allow you at least one delay. OK, it's possible to work around if you take special care. No one should have to pay that much attention to their update schedule. > Keep your OS up to date and, surprisingly enough, you won't have any problems caused by it being not up to date. The problem isn't caused by the machine being not up to date. It's caused by Microsoft requiring forced updates. The computer doing something disruptive that I didn't ask it to do is something that I associate with malicious software; it shouldn't be something that I expect from my OS. > EDIT: May I also remind everyone that your corporate IT security policy almost certainly requires you to keep the OS on your work PCs up to date? They do. I typically have 2 weeks of warning, and the chance to update anytime within that time period. I am warned repeatedly as the day approaches that the computer will restart on its own. Patch sets are released monthly, so it's not particularly onerous.