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Well maybe we should stop backing people into a corner then? For example, why don't back down on immigration? Instead, it sounds like "we're not listening to y

Well maybe we should stop backing people into a corner then? For example, why don't back down on immigration? Instead, it sounds like "we're not listening to your concerns, rightful or not, your opinion won't affect how things are done". Hard to imagine how this treatment won't lead to panic attacks. Actually, countries definitely become harder and harder on immigration but there's a failure to project these changes to fellow voters. While reading this article I've got the exact feeling that, to the author, it's much more important to reinforce immigration than care about fellow citizens' feelings.

Noseshine 10y ago
> Well maybe we should stop backing people into a corner then? I agree with you thus far... > For example, why don't back down on immigration? But why this? I would ask for one thing: Rationality and existence of a connection. For example, if my country Germany is any guide, the parts of the country with the most fear of immigration are the ones least affected by it! Given that missing connection, how would it solve anything to listen to the demand of people in those regions to limit immigration? I agree with you - but only if the people demanding something are actually affected by it, both ways (i.e. by the thing itself as well as by what they demand).
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  "how would it solve anything to listen to the demand of people" First of all, maybe they'll be less scared? You see yourself as a filter who will determine which requests are reasonable and which aren't. This is where trouble is.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    What on earth are you doing? You quoted only part of the sentence!!! Of course, the entire context would have ruined your artificially gained point.
- megous 10y ago
  In Czech Republic, it's even more pronounced. The government accepted in total about 20 immigrants from Syria so far and if you read comments on the internet, or watch demonstrations, it's like the end of the world is coming. Also some of the fear might be quite shallow. There was a report of some old lady in the village that accepted some refugees. She was first afraid when asked about newcomers, stating fears that are commonly represented in the media. Then when she was told that they have children, and lack some stuff, she went there and donated some clothes. Hardliners that join fringe political parties are probably quite different. But also less open to reason. But I suspect that most people's fears can be quite easily ameliorated.
  - nostromo123 10y ago
    If all refugees behaved like that, with a willingness to integrate and understand our ways, I think there would be much less fear going around. The people start being afraid when they see that some of the so-called refugees are violent, look down on women / homosexuals / Christians / Jews / etc., try to live by their own law, and so on. In a word, we are tolerant and have to accept their intolerance. Don't believe me? Just look at the reports of Christian refugees being mobbed by Muslim refugees in asylums in Germany. I don't understand why in such a situation the Christian refugees have no right to be protected, while the Muslims have to be shown "tolerance" for their "religious beliefs". Or Muslim refugees openly declaring in German newspaper interviews that Hitler was a great man and Jews should be eradicated. Do we really want such people in Western countries? This is what makes people afraid, not the fact that someone has a different skin colour or a different religion. Sure there are some lunatic "white supremacists" / bona fide racists, but most people's fears are legitimate and not born out of xenophobia or racism. And this is the obstacle to a reasonable discussion: usually, any such fears are dismissed with the "you're racist" comment. Sorry, I don't think I'm racist just because I don't subscribe to the idea that Jews should be exterminated.
- nostromo123 10y ago
  So what now: people are not allowed anymore to be afraid of something they have not experienced themselves? Haven't been hit by a car / experienced a nuclear strike / had cancer, but I am not allowed to fear them on principle? By the way, the ability to see a potentially dangerous situation happening to someone else and deciding you don't want to be in that situation yourself is a sign of a correctly functioning cognitive system.
pjc50 10y ago
There is no "back down" on immigration, because immigration is already pretty heavily restricted. There's no way for bystanders to check someone's immigration status, so when you see someone complaining about "too many immigrants", some of the people they're complaining about are actually nationals who've been around for years. And there's no way of getting rid of them, short of violence. We've already seen this kind of thing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37227313 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37227313) happening more after Brexit. Listening to people who are dangerously wrong on the facts just encourages other people to agree with them. Whatever the right word for people who turn on immigrants like that is, it's definitely not scared. They're the ones doing the scaring. Likewise with refugees: there's not really any policy change we can make to stop refugees coming, other than trying to fix the conflict they're fleeing. They're already fleeing death, you're not going to scare them with paperwork. Are you going to deport them (including women and children) to a warzone? (It's rather like crime: the amount of crime you and your family have ever experienced is a number that can only go up, whereas the probability of becoming a victim has been generally declining over time. So people think crime is rising when it isn't.)
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  > And there's no way of getting rid of them, short of violence. And that's where people become really-really cautious about immigration. You can't really change your mind later - after a few years your undesirable neo-compatriot can't be got rid of. It's irreversible. People fear irreversible decisions and don't trust politicians on those. So the only shot you have is not letting people in at all. Even if it means turning down honest good people. If you want to make people more immigration friendly, figure out how to track and deport existing immigrants when things go wrong. Not just tell other people what to think.

Noseshine 10y ago

> Well maybe we should stop backing people into a corner then? I agree with you thus far... > For example, why don't back down on immigration? But why this? I would ask for one thing: Rationality and existence of a connection. For example, if my country Germany is any guide, the parts of the country with the most fear of immigration are the ones least affected by it! Given that missing connection, how would it solve anything to listen to the demand of people in those regions to limit immigration? I agree with you - but only if the people demanding something are actually affected by it, both ways (i.e. by the thing itself as well as by what they demand).

guard-of-terra 10y ago
"how would it solve anything to listen to the demand of people" First of all, maybe they'll be less scared? You see yourself as a filter who will determine which requests are reasonable and which aren't. This is where trouble is.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  What on earth are you doing? You quoted only part of the sentence!!! Of course, the entire context would have ruined your artificially gained point.
megous 10y ago
In Czech Republic, it's even more pronounced. The government accepted in total about 20 immigrants from Syria so far and if you read comments on the internet, or watch demonstrations, it's like the end of the world is coming. Also some of the fear might be quite shallow. There was a report of some old lady in the village that accepted some refugees. She was first afraid when asked about newcomers, stating fears that are commonly represented in the media. Then when she was told that they have children, and lack some stuff, she went there and donated some clothes. Hardliners that join fringe political parties are probably quite different. But also less open to reason. But I suspect that most people's fears can be quite easily ameliorated.
- nostromo123 10y ago
  If all refugees behaved like that, with a willingness to integrate and understand our ways, I think there would be much less fear going around. The people start being afraid when they see that some of the so-called refugees are violent, look down on women / homosexuals / Christians / Jews / etc., try to live by their own law, and so on. In a word, we are tolerant and have to accept their intolerance. Don't believe me? Just look at the reports of Christian refugees being mobbed by Muslim refugees in asylums in Germany. I don't understand why in such a situation the Christian refugees have no right to be protected, while the Muslims have to be shown "tolerance" for their "religious beliefs". Or Muslim refugees openly declaring in German newspaper interviews that Hitler was a great man and Jews should be eradicated. Do we really want such people in Western countries? This is what makes people afraid, not the fact that someone has a different skin colour or a different religion. Sure there are some lunatic "white supremacists" / bona fide racists, but most people's fears are legitimate and not born out of xenophobia or racism. And this is the obstacle to a reasonable discussion: usually, any such fears are dismissed with the "you're racist" comment. Sorry, I don't think I'm racist just because I don't subscribe to the idea that Jews should be exterminated.
nostromo123 10y ago
So what now: people are not allowed anymore to be afraid of something they have not experienced themselves? Haven't been hit by a car / experienced a nuclear strike / had cancer, but I am not allowed to fear them on principle? By the way, the ability to see a potentially dangerous situation happening to someone else and deciding you don't want to be in that situation yourself is a sign of a correctly functioning cognitive system.

pjc50 10y ago

There is no "back down" on immigration, because immigration is already pretty heavily restricted. There's no way for bystanders to check someone's immigration status, so when you see someone complaining about "too many immigrants", some of the people they're complaining about are actually nationals who've been around for years. And there's no way of getting rid of them, short of violence. We've already seen this kind of thing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37227313 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37227313) happening more after Brexit. Listening to people who are dangerously wrong on the facts just encourages other people to agree with them. Whatever the right word for people who turn on immigrants like that is, it's definitely not scared. They're the ones doing the scaring. Likewise with refugees: there's not really any policy change we can make to stop refugees coming, other than trying to fix the conflict they're fleeing. They're already fleeing death, you're not going to scare them with paperwork. Are you going to deport them (including women and children) to a warzone? (It's rather like crime: the amount of crime you and your family have ever experienced is a number that can only go up, whereas the probability of becoming a victim has been generally declining over time. So people think crime is rising when it isn't.)

guard-of-terra 10y ago
> And there's no way of getting rid of them, short of violence. And that's where people become really-really cautious about immigration. You can't really change your mind later - after a few years your undesirable neo-compatriot can't be got rid of. It's irreversible. People fear irreversible decisions and don't trust politicians on those. So the only shot you have is not letting people in at all. Even if it means turning down honest good people. If you want to make people more immigration friendly, figure out how to track and deport existing immigrants when things go wrong. Not just tell other people what to think.