7 ms·

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/epis

by awjr 10y ago

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hypernormalisation http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hy...). Haven't watched it yet but I do think there seems to be a certain type of crazy happening in the world and I can't put my finger on it. We have whole generations of young people that have been disenfranchised and are having to carry the financial burden of baby boomers. A group in our society, that as it ages, becomes selfish and politically more conservative in their approach. Something big needs to change and the idea "you must work to survive" within our society is beginning to sound very disjointed.

rch 10y ago
At scale, all basic income will get you is a cot in an urban dorm somewhere (possibly not of your choosing). You'd be able to take walks, sit by the river and write in a journal, or do whatever idle activity appeals to you, but it won't be fancy.
- eveningcoffee 10y ago
  I think that the key factor here is the access to the knowledge (science books, papers etc) and industrial capacity. What many people fancy here based on my observation is the removal of stress to work on job with low productivity because of fear of becoming homeless and starving instead of working on some personal project that may or may not lead to success.
- VLM 10y ago
  You write that as though its not a paradise?
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    It's not, at least for some of us. It sounds pretty horrible really (though better than no assistance at all). I don't know about you, but living in a dorm doesn't sound like much fun to me, depending on the exact living conditions and my neighbors. Having roommates sucks; I've done it many times, and I don't like it. Now I will say that I used to live in a dorm in college and bought out my room, and that was a nice arrangement: friends down the hall, but the room all to myself (had to share the bathroom though), plenty of activities within walking distance. But here, my neighbors were all college students, not the general population, so that probably made things more bearable. So if for some reason I can't get a good-paying job and have to live on UBI, but it lets me afford my own small dorm room all to myself, plus a meal card at the cafeteria, plus healthcare, and the neighbors are decent and I don't have to worry about getting robbed or burgled, then that actually sounds like a pretty sweet setup. Force me to live in a room with 3 other roommates, though, and I'll probably be looking at how to just camp out in a tent in a park somewhere.
- usrusr 10y ago
  Which is exactly why there is no risk of a shortage of people willing to exert themselves in order to get more than that. Lucky for them, they won't have to compete against those who don't.
gizmo 10y ago
Millennials have to carry that financial burden, but most other generations had to make much bigger sacrifices. I'd take the financial struggles of the millennial generation over having to fight in WW2 and rebuilding the nation in the aftermath, which is what the Greatest Generation got tasked with. Every generation faces difficult challenges, and the financial issues of the millennial generation are just a matter of national policy. Okay, so some activism is needed to change this. Every generation had to engage in activism to create a more equitable society, why should the millennial generation be the exception? I think the future looks very bright overall, although I can totally see why some millennials see only doom and gloom because of their personal situation.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Rebuilding what nation? The U.S. was unscathed and came out roaring. Everybody could get jobs, college was cheap, home ownership was a given. And don't forget, millennials have been shouldering this global war on terror crap for the last 15 years. While WW2 was horrific, at least they were fighting for something they believed in, and at least it was over after 4 years. Oh and then add in the second worst financial crisis ever putting millions out of work, and crushing student loan debt in order to even participate in the workforce. The greatest generation fought the greatest war, but their kids were the worst American generation we've ever had.
  - gizmo 10y ago
    What nation? Italy, Spain, UK, Germany, Belgium, Greece, Serbia, France, Russia, Japan, you name it. Because of this worldwide rebuilding effort there was an incredible demand for products, construction, and so forth. US industry and exports boomed as a result. The greatest generation in the US had it a lot easier than their peers in Europe, but the economics are intertwined. By focusing exclusively on US prosperity you're missing that. The US prospered in large part _because_ of the miserable rebuilding effort in the rest of the world. WW2 also lasted for 6 years, not 4. As for your claim that boomers are the worst generation in American history, surely you're not suggesting that they're worse than the slave-holding generations? That position is frankly untenable.
snowwrestler 10y ago
There's a big problem that a basic income doesn't solve, which is the lack of a job. From the article: > Some experts suspect that frequent use of painkillers is a result of being out of work, because people who have no job prospects are more likely to be depressed, become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have other mental health problems. A job is more than a way to earn money. Jobs help people structure their lives and live with a sense of purpose.
- amalcon 10y ago
  It's easy to find a "job" if you don't need the money earning part, though. There are nonprofits all over the place that will happily give you all the tasks you want, even tasks that you can do from home if that's what you need, as long as they don't need to pay you.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  This idea (that jobs are required to give a sense of purpose) and it's close cousin idea (that one's living must be "earned" and the proper way is with a job), are reasons why Basic Income, even if financially feasible, would never be politically feasible. Our culture is so wrapped up in the idea of the necessity of jobs that I predict we will see government programs to pay 1/2 of the people to dig holes and the other 1/2 to fill them in, before we see Basic Income.

by awjr 10y ago

rch 10y ago

At scale, all basic income will get you is a cot in an urban dorm somewhere (possibly not of your choosing). You'd be able to take walks, sit by the river and write in a journal, or do whatever idle activity appeals to you, but it won't be fancy.

eveningcoffee 10y ago
I think that the key factor here is the access to the knowledge (science books, papers etc) and industrial capacity. What many people fancy here based on my observation is the removal of stress to work on job with low productivity because of fear of becoming homeless and starving instead of working on some personal project that may or may not lead to success.
VLM 10y ago
You write that as though its not a paradise?
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  It's not, at least for some of us. It sounds pretty horrible really (though better than no assistance at all). I don't know about you, but living in a dorm doesn't sound like much fun to me, depending on the exact living conditions and my neighbors. Having roommates sucks; I've done it many times, and I don't like it. Now I will say that I used to live in a dorm in college and bought out my room, and that was a nice arrangement: friends down the hall, but the room all to myself (had to share the bathroom though), plenty of activities within walking distance. But here, my neighbors were all college students, not the general population, so that probably made things more bearable. So if for some reason I can't get a good-paying job and have to live on UBI, but it lets me afford my own small dorm room all to myself, plus a meal card at the cafeteria, plus healthcare, and the neighbors are decent and I don't have to worry about getting robbed or burgled, then that actually sounds like a pretty sweet setup. Force me to live in a room with 3 other roommates, though, and I'll probably be looking at how to just camp out in a tent in a park somewhere.
usrusr 10y ago
Which is exactly why there is no risk of a shortage of people willing to exert themselves in order to get more than that. Lucky for them, they won't have to compete against those who don't.

gizmo 10y ago

Millennials have to carry that financial burden, but most other generations had to make much bigger sacrifices. I'd take the financial struggles of the millennial generation over having to fight in WW2 and rebuilding the nation in the aftermath, which is what the Greatest Generation got tasked with. Every generation faces difficult challenges, and the financial issues of the millennial generation are just a matter of national policy. Okay, so some activism is needed to change this. Every generation had to engage in activism to create a more equitable society, why should the millennial generation be the exception? I think the future looks very bright overall, although I can totally see why some millennials see only doom and gloom because of their personal situation.

muninn_ 10y ago
Rebuilding what nation? The U.S. was unscathed and came out roaring. Everybody could get jobs, college was cheap, home ownership was a given. And don't forget, millennials have been shouldering this global war on terror crap for the last 15 years. While WW2 was horrific, at least they were fighting for something they believed in, and at least it was over after 4 years. Oh and then add in the second worst financial crisis ever putting millions out of work, and crushing student loan debt in order to even participate in the workforce. The greatest generation fought the greatest war, but their kids were the worst American generation we've ever had.
- gizmo 10y ago
  What nation? Italy, Spain, UK, Germany, Belgium, Greece, Serbia, France, Russia, Japan, you name it. Because of this worldwide rebuilding effort there was an incredible demand for products, construction, and so forth. US industry and exports boomed as a result. The greatest generation in the US had it a lot easier than their peers in Europe, but the economics are intertwined. By focusing exclusively on US prosperity you're missing that. The US prospered in large part _because_ of the miserable rebuilding effort in the rest of the world. WW2 also lasted for 6 years, not 4. As for your claim that boomers are the worst generation in American history, surely you're not suggesting that they're worse than the slave-holding generations? That position is frankly untenable.

snowwrestler 10y ago

There's a big problem that a basic income doesn't solve, which is the lack of a job. From the article: > Some experts suspect that frequent use of painkillers is a result of being out of work, because people who have no job prospects are more likely to be depressed, become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have other mental health problems. A job is more than a way to earn money. Jobs help people structure their lives and live with a sense of purpose.

amalcon 10y ago
It's easy to find a "job" if you don't need the money earning part, though. There are nonprofits all over the place that will happily give you all the tasks you want, even tasks that you can do from home if that's what you need, as long as they don't need to pay you.
ryandrake 10y ago
This idea (that jobs are required to give a sense of purpose) and it's close cousin idea (that one's living must be "earned" and the proper way is with a job), are reasons why Basic Income, even if financially feasible, would never be politically feasible. Our culture is so wrapped up in the idea of the necessity of jobs that I predict we will see government programs to pay 1/2 of the people to dig holes and the other 1/2 to fill them in, before we see Basic Income.