7 ms·

> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, a

> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.] Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible, unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could certainly help.

contingencies 10y ago
If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Not really, a diagnosis of a mental disorder isn't an attempt to slur a person, it's recognition that they have behavior patterns that inhibit their ability to engage with society. That's something that can be assessed pretty objectively.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    I did not say that, and I agree with you. However, I disagree that any majority has the right to force others to 'engage with society' on their own terms or be excluded, which is often basically what allegations of 'mental illness' are.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      The exclusion can happen without any use of force, and a lot of outreach programs focus on reducing the exclusion, not on forcing normative behaviors.
      - contingencies 10y ago
        Just because I give you a hug and a cup of coffee doesn't mean I don't want to enslave you to do my bidding. Society kind of acts like this, although individual human actors don't necessarily perceive themselves as contributing.
- SolaceQuantum 10y ago
  Have you ever gone through the process of being so mentally ill you can't work? It's quite difficult and not something one undergoes just because they want free money. It's dehumanizing and degrading to have to list all these ways you literally can't function like a mentally healthy human being. I know people who frankly have to choose between that and homelessness. To imply there's nothing wrong with these people and in fact the problem lies with the idea of mental disorders existing expresses to me a perhaps lack of exposure or understanding of people who are sick.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    Hey I'm not claiming nobody's sick, just that if that many people have problems functioning in society then society's probably a big part of the problem.
    - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
      Your rhetoric implies an allegation of sickness rather than them actually being sick. I'm not going to deny that society may have contributing factors such as stigma or how society deals with traumatized individuals, but to imply that that many people being that sick is to be prescribed to an issue with the definition of being mentally ill strikes me as strange.
      - brookside 10y ago
        Depression really is more akin to a symptom than a disease. There aren't even clearly defined biomarkers that are associated with this cluster of symptoms we call depression.
    - istjohn 10y ago
      In fact, you claimed that many of the people diagnosed are actually fine. Please revise or walk back your statement if you want, but don't deny the plain meaning of your words.
      - 10y ago
- istjohn 10y ago
  Your knee-jerk response to this statistic is symptomatic of the stygma attatched to mental illness in our society. If this was a statistic on a viral infection, would you be so doubtful? This attitude is what keeps people from being willing to seek help when they suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts for fear that skeptics will judge them as faking or lacking character. As someone who lived for over ten years with multiple undiagnosed mental disorders and suffered significant, unnecesary setbacks as a result, I believe we still have a ways to go before mental health is treated with the appropriate amount of concern.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    I think you misread my comments. I am just saying that when a fairly large percentage of the population is considered 'mentally ill' then they're probably not ill at all, they're just having a perfectly reasonable response to a completely screwed up society. I mean objectively the binary view of "sick" and "healthy" is wrong for starters. Also objectively, many societies don't have these issues or at least don't have these issues to nearly the rates that the US or Japan does... what does that you tell you about so-called (capitalist) "development" in a society? Maybe something, maybe nothing. You be the judge. Not that anyone asked, but I personally believe the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population (lower socioeconomic status, indebted/mortgaged workers, isolated lifestyle individuals, the elderly) as a result.
    - moosey 10y ago
      > the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population That causes damage. Turning your ankle or pulling a muscle might be more obvious, because it's purely physical, but there isn't as much difference as you think. There have been studies that show that long term unemployment causes permanent changes to a persons personality, one not easily healed by getting a new job[1]. These modifications to thinking and increased stress levels lead to physical changes (and argumentatively decay). Pointing out the source of the problem in society does not change the fact that it isn't mental illness. Quite on the contrary, giving a source is similar to pointing at a poisoned well and saying "That's why everyone is sick.", but then afterwards saying nobody is really sick because we all know the well is poisoned. [1]: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-unemployment-changes-personality-traits/ http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-unemployme...
- happyslobro 10y ago
  The only reason not to downvote, is to ensure that the rebuttal to this common attitude remains highly visible.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  The general population has an incidence rate of around 1:5 every year. Lifetime incidence is 1:2. That its between the two in the chronic unemployed isn't at all surprising. The group is probably overrepresented in suicide stats too.
- Shivetya 10y ago
  well i can see those replying to you completely ignore the amount of money involved in diagnosing such issues. it is similar to handing out handicap placards, there is so much money to be had from various programs that its profitable for both hospital and even the patients. worse the system discourages not giving patients the designation they want because doctors are routinely subject to surveys that must come back positive, by the very patients they serve this is not to say there are not people with mental disorders but the vagueness of some disorders leads to a lot of abuse and in some cases its because people figure they don't have to deal with it, life in general, its not their fault, its far easier to take that declaration of disorder and put the blame there and not change lifestyle, job, or habits.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    Thanks for contributing to the discussion instead of attacking my (apparently much misinterpreted) statement. There is a systemic problem with the bureaucracy around health in many countries, and western countries have diagnosed huge amounts of mental 'disorders' from children to adults in the past few decades. There is certainly a profit motive. However, there is also a reality that in an increasingly urbanized/automated/electronic communication based society, maintaining meaningful human relationships, a sense of self-worth and the will to often meaningless employment is clearly becoming gradually more and more difficult for many people. This is what I refer to when I suggest that the number of so-called mentally ill is perhaps only indicative of a problem of society. I think, in fact, that the people who respond to this reality with despondent depressive demotivation and feelings of helplessness, paranoia and anxiety are actually extremely rational. Perhaps more rational than the majority.
    - slfnflctd 10y ago
      > mental 'disorders' The DSM has certainly done its share of damage, I have to say. I think we'd agree on that. I'm not even sure it's done more good than harm. You keep coming back to this being a problem with our social structure, and honestly I do suspect it's probably the biggest factor. This is why I support Basic Income (with a non-ludicrous rollout, and plenty of balancing along the way).
colmvp 10y ago
Indeed. I know so many people (from support groups) who say they are afraid of mentioning their mental condition to their employer for fear of effects of the social stigma from their superiors and the impact on their career.
dilemma 10y ago
Unemployment causes depression and other types of mental reactions that are classified as disorders or diseases.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  It could be argued that it's not unemployment itself that causes depression, but the implications and effects of unemployment. If one could magically find independence, social acceptance, and financial support without employment, I suspect most of the ill effects of unemployment would disappear.
  - DonaldFisk 10y ago
    Ideally, something like Basic Income. In the UK the means testing for benefits if you find yourself out of work has resulted in numerous suicides: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-smiths-tougher-fit-to-work-tests-coincide-with-590-additional-suicides-a6737136.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-sm...
  - disease 10y ago
    As someone who has spent significant amounts of time 'funemployed', I have to disagree. There's a great line from Madmen about people that retire early. They play golf, they go to parties and then they die.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      I think the trick might be treating "work" and "employment" as separate concepts. Systematically unemployed people might find fulfillment working on things they decide for themselves are worth the effort.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

contingencies 10y ago

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

maxerickson 10y ago
Not really, a diagnosis of a mental disorder isn't an attempt to slur a person, it's recognition that they have behavior patterns that inhibit their ability to engage with society. That's something that can be assessed pretty objectively.
- contingencies 10y ago
  I did not say that, and I agree with you. However, I disagree that any majority has the right to force others to 'engage with society' on their own terms or be excluded, which is often basically what allegations of 'mental illness' are.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    The exclusion can happen without any use of force, and a lot of outreach programs focus on reducing the exclusion, not on forcing normative behaviors.
    - contingencies 10y ago
      Just because I give you a hug and a cup of coffee doesn't mean I don't want to enslave you to do my bidding. Society kind of acts like this, although individual human actors don't necessarily perceive themselves as contributing.
SolaceQuantum 10y ago
Have you ever gone through the process of being so mentally ill you can't work? It's quite difficult and not something one undergoes just because they want free money. It's dehumanizing and degrading to have to list all these ways you literally can't function like a mentally healthy human being. I know people who frankly have to choose between that and homelessness. To imply there's nothing wrong with these people and in fact the problem lies with the idea of mental disorders existing expresses to me a perhaps lack of exposure or understanding of people who are sick.
- contingencies 10y ago
  Hey I'm not claiming nobody's sick, just that if that many people have problems functioning in society then society's probably a big part of the problem.
  - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
    Your rhetoric implies an allegation of sickness rather than them actually being sick. I'm not going to deny that society may have contributing factors such as stigma or how society deals with traumatized individuals, but to imply that that many people being that sick is to be prescribed to an issue with the definition of being mentally ill strikes me as strange.
    - brookside 10y ago
      Depression really is more akin to a symptom than a disease. There aren't even clearly defined biomarkers that are associated with this cluster of symptoms we call depression.
  - istjohn 10y ago
    In fact, you claimed that many of the people diagnosed are actually fine. Please revise or walk back your statement if you want, but don't deny the plain meaning of your words.
    - 10y ago
istjohn 10y ago
Your knee-jerk response to this statistic is symptomatic of the stygma attatched to mental illness in our society. If this was a statistic on a viral infection, would you be so doubtful? This attitude is what keeps people from being willing to seek help when they suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts for fear that skeptics will judge them as faking or lacking character. As someone who lived for over ten years with multiple undiagnosed mental disorders and suffered significant, unnecesary setbacks as a result, I believe we still have a ways to go before mental health is treated with the appropriate amount of concern.
- contingencies 10y ago
  I think you misread my comments. I am just saying that when a fairly large percentage of the population is considered 'mentally ill' then they're probably not ill at all, they're just having a perfectly reasonable response to a completely screwed up society. I mean objectively the binary view of "sick" and "healthy" is wrong for starters. Also objectively, many societies don't have these issues or at least don't have these issues to nearly the rates that the US or Japan does... what does that you tell you about so-called (capitalist) "development" in a society? Maybe something, maybe nothing. You be the judge. Not that anyone asked, but I personally believe the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population (lower socioeconomic status, indebted/mortgaged workers, isolated lifestyle individuals, the elderly) as a result.
  - moosey 10y ago
    > the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population That causes damage. Turning your ankle or pulling a muscle might be more obvious, because it's purely physical, but there isn't as much difference as you think. There have been studies that show that long term unemployment causes permanent changes to a persons personality, one not easily healed by getting a new job[1]. These modifications to thinking and increased stress levels lead to physical changes (and argumentatively decay). Pointing out the source of the problem in society does not change the fact that it isn't mental illness. Quite on the contrary, giving a source is similar to pointing at a poisoned well and saying "That's why everyone is sick.", but then afterwards saying nobody is really sick because we all know the well is poisoned. [1]: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-unemployment-changes-personality-traits/ http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-unemployme...
happyslobro 10y ago
The only reason not to downvote, is to ensure that the rebuttal to this common attitude remains highly visible.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
The general population has an incidence rate of around 1:5 every year. Lifetime incidence is 1:2. That its between the two in the chronic unemployed isn't at all surprising. The group is probably overrepresented in suicide stats too.
Shivetya 10y ago
well i can see those replying to you completely ignore the amount of money involved in diagnosing such issues. it is similar to handing out handicap placards, there is so much money to be had from various programs that its profitable for both hospital and even the patients. worse the system discourages not giving patients the designation they want because doctors are routinely subject to surveys that must come back positive, by the very patients they serve this is not to say there are not people with mental disorders but the vagueness of some disorders leads to a lot of abuse and in some cases its because people figure they don't have to deal with it, life in general, its not their fault, its far easier to take that declaration of disorder and put the blame there and not change lifestyle, job, or habits.
- contingencies 10y ago
  Thanks for contributing to the discussion instead of attacking my (apparently much misinterpreted) statement. There is a systemic problem with the bureaucracy around health in many countries, and western countries have diagnosed huge amounts of mental 'disorders' from children to adults in the past few decades. There is certainly a profit motive. However, there is also a reality that in an increasingly urbanized/automated/electronic communication based society, maintaining meaningful human relationships, a sense of self-worth and the will to often meaningless employment is clearly becoming gradually more and more difficult for many people. This is what I refer to when I suggest that the number of so-called mentally ill is perhaps only indicative of a problem of society. I think, in fact, that the people who respond to this reality with despondent depressive demotivation and feelings of helplessness, paranoia and anxiety are actually extremely rational. Perhaps more rational than the majority.
  - slfnflctd 10y ago
    > mental 'disorders' The DSM has certainly done its share of damage, I have to say. I think we'd agree on that. I'm not even sure it's done more good than harm. You keep coming back to this being a problem with our social structure, and honestly I do suspect it's probably the biggest factor. This is why I support Basic Income (with a non-ludicrous rollout, and plenty of balancing along the way).

colmvp 10y ago

Indeed. I know so many people (from support groups) who say they are afraid of mentioning their mental condition to their employer for fear of effects of the social stigma from their superiors and the impact on their career.

dilemma 10y ago

Unemployment causes depression and other types of mental reactions that are classified as disorders or diseases.

nitrogen 10y ago
It could be argued that it's not unemployment itself that causes depression, but the implications and effects of unemployment. If one could magically find independence, social acceptance, and financial support without employment, I suspect most of the ill effects of unemployment would disappear.
- DonaldFisk 10y ago
  Ideally, something like Basic Income. In the UK the means testing for benefits if you find yourself out of work has resulted in numerous suicides: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-smiths-tougher-fit-to-work-tests-coincide-with-590-additional-suicides-a6737136.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-sm...
- disease 10y ago
  As someone who has spent significant amounts of time 'funemployed', I have to disagree. There's a great line from Madmen about people that retire early. They play golf, they go to parties and then they die.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    I think the trick might be treating "work" and "employment" as separate concepts. Systematically unemployed people might find fulfillment working on things they decide for themselves are worth the effort.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]