5 ms·

I think your other points are good, but I disagree here: > The vast, vast majority of Americans simply cannot afford to take extended time off to travel intern

I think your other points are good, but I disagree here: > The vast, vast majority of Americans simply cannot afford to take extended time off to travel internationally It can be done very economically; students with almost no money do it, staying in hostels, taking trains, etc. I know one guy who worked his way through, at least to some extent. If you have kids and a mortgage, that's a different story.

aianus 10y ago
Americans have student debt.
hiram112 10y ago
It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US. It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it. Simply continuing to live as I always have, regardless of raises, has made the most difference. Granted, children and marriage are two things that I'm very unlikely to do anytime soon, as I feel it is simply too risky in the US as a man. But yes there is something in our culture that impedes travel and long vacations like this. I have visited many places off the beaten path, and one thing I've noticed is that Europeans (especially Germans) really seem to get around the world - they prioritize it, while in the US I've only recently taken my first vacation in many years where I did not bring my work alone with me. I think the lack of job stability really makes Americans feel anxious about employment. One can lose their job here and be out the door in 30 minutes, no warning. There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially. But like I said, salaries in the US seem really high, so it can certainly be done. In fact, I prefer this to the EU system as I am in full control of my life, and by saving more money that isn't taxed as much, it's possible to retire far earlier than engineers in the EU or elsewhere.
- taurath 10y ago
  "Typical" 6 figure rates are in or near the 90th percentile of income. Cost of living in most places with those 6 figure salaries are in the 90th percentile too.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US. After 14 years in Dallas I have never broken the six-figure barrier. I am only about to do so because I am moving to NYC. > It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it. I have only earned several hundred thousand over the course of my career. It would not be easy for me to save it even if I wanted to spend less on more immediate gratification.
- CalRobert 10y ago
  "... to the typical six figure rates seen in the US." You need to get your news from more than one source. HN is not a representative sample. I can't overstate this. I can tell you that having lived in the US and Europe it is MUCH easier to travel as a European resident: * 21 days of vacation every year, by law, that people actually use. 6 weeks for some places, like Germany (how do you think it is they travel so much??) In the US if you get vacation it's common to be shamed by your coworkers and bosses if you use more than a few days. A friend of mine works for a company with "unlimited vacation". He just visited Morocco and Portugal for a few weeks and was chided by colleagues for it. He is an incredibly talented and in-demand engineer, though, so he can tell them to shove it. Most people cannot. * You can leave your job and not be stuck with terrible health insurance (Obamacare is a start, but when you're a footloose 20 something what the hell good is a plan that costs $150 a month and has a $6000 deductible?) * If you have student loans at all, they're generally quite small. * The social safety net is stronger; jobseeker's allowance, the dole, etc. are not as hard to qualify for as unemployment is in the US. Think to yourself - in the US, the worst possible consequence of taking a vacation is that you'll be sleeping in gutters after you get back and your boss fires you to set an example. In much of Europe you collect benefit (modest, but still something) and live with roommates. * Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country. * Most of all, not everyone is a developer. Perhaps people who make $30k a year should be able to take some time off, even for a modest vacation near home, without being in abject terror of seeing their lives ruined for it?
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    > * Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country. As a soon-to-be resident of the NYC metro area, I was shocked to discover that the monthly costs of those alternatives effectively added up to a car payment.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially. Why don't people in the US simply found a safety net among peers with comparable motivational and educational background instead of crying that the state has to provide it?
  - CalRobert 10y ago
    We have that. It's private health insurance. However, as we've gotten pretty good at identifying high and low risk individuals it means many people are unable to access it when they need it. This is why health insurance may be better provided by the state (though really the jury's still out on that one). In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying?
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      > In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying? That's why I wrote "among peers with comparable motivational and educational background [and/or shared values]". This should reduce the free rider problem a lot.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    Because of the enormous adverse selection problem inherent in starting such a collective. Who is most likely to join? Someone who intends to take benefit from it, or someone who is hoping to never use the benefits?
pound 10y ago
I think it's not about affording traveling itself but to be able to afford everything that comes with it, like consequences, plugging in back upon return, picking up career etc.
mdorazio 10y ago
Economic travel is meaningless if you have debt payments to make, or if you can't afford a plane ticket. Banks don't care if you want to take a year off - they still want their money. Roughly 70% of US undergrads come out of college in debt, with that debt being an average of over $35k. Most of these graduates spend at least all of their 20s paying this off, and then have to juggle mortgages and family obligations for the next 20 years. And of course there's that widely publicized study showing that 63% of Americans can't even afford a $500 emergency bill to repair their car or pay for a medical procedure. Buying a plane ticket to Europe and meals/lodging, even at grocery store & hostels level, is out of the question for average non-tech worker. My point is that if you look at the percentage of Americans who can afford to take a year off work, afford to get to and live in a location like Western Europe, and still have a decent chance of regaining a good job upon return, you've easily excluded 90%+ of the population.

aianus 10y ago

Americans have student debt.

hiram112 10y ago

It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US. It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it. Simply continuing to live as I always have, regardless of raises, has made the most difference. Granted, children and marriage are two things that I'm very unlikely to do anytime soon, as I feel it is simply too risky in the US as a man. But yes there is something in our culture that impedes travel and long vacations like this. I have visited many places off the beaten path, and one thing I've noticed is that Europeans (especially Germans) really seem to get around the world - they prioritize it, while in the US I've only recently taken my first vacation in many years where I did not bring my work alone with me. I think the lack of job stability really makes Americans feel anxious about employment. One can lose their job here and be out the door in 30 minutes, no warning. There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially. But like I said, salaries in the US seem really high, so it can certainly be done. In fact, I prefer this to the EU system as I am in full control of my life, and by saving more money that isn't taxed as much, it's possible to retire far earlier than engineers in the EU or elsewhere.

taurath 10y ago
"Typical" 6 figure rates are in or near the 90th percentile of income. Cost of living in most places with those 6 figure salaries are in the 90th percentile too.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US. After 14 years in Dallas I have never broken the six-figure barrier. I am only about to do so because I am moving to NYC. > It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it. I have only earned several hundred thousand over the course of my career. It would not be easy for me to save it even if I wanted to spend less on more immediate gratification.
CalRobert 10y ago
"... to the typical six figure rates seen in the US." You need to get your news from more than one source. HN is not a representative sample. I can't overstate this. I can tell you that having lived in the US and Europe it is MUCH easier to travel as a European resident: * 21 days of vacation every year, by law, that people actually use. 6 weeks for some places, like Germany (how do you think it is they travel so much??) In the US if you get vacation it's common to be shamed by your coworkers and bosses if you use more than a few days. A friend of mine works for a company with "unlimited vacation". He just visited Morocco and Portugal for a few weeks and was chided by colleagues for it. He is an incredibly talented and in-demand engineer, though, so he can tell them to shove it. Most people cannot. * You can leave your job and not be stuck with terrible health insurance (Obamacare is a start, but when you're a footloose 20 something what the hell good is a plan that costs $150 a month and has a $6000 deductible?) * If you have student loans at all, they're generally quite small. * The social safety net is stronger; jobseeker's allowance, the dole, etc. are not as hard to qualify for as unemployment is in the US. Think to yourself - in the US, the worst possible consequence of taking a vacation is that you'll be sleeping in gutters after you get back and your boss fires you to set an example. In much of Europe you collect benefit (modest, but still something) and live with roommates. * Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country. * Most of all, not everyone is a developer. Perhaps people who make $30k a year should be able to take some time off, even for a modest vacation near home, without being in abject terror of seeing their lives ruined for it?
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > * Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country. As a soon-to-be resident of the NYC metro area, I was shocked to discover that the monthly costs of those alternatives effectively added up to a car payment.
wolfgke 10y ago
> There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially. Why don't people in the US simply found a safety net among peers with comparable motivational and educational background instead of crying that the state has to provide it?
- CalRobert 10y ago
  We have that. It's private health insurance. However, as we've gotten pretty good at identifying high and low risk individuals it means many people are unable to access it when they need it. This is why health insurance may be better provided by the state (though really the jury's still out on that one). In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying?
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying? That's why I wrote "among peers with comparable motivational and educational background [and/or shared values]". This should reduce the free rider problem a lot.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  Because of the enormous adverse selection problem inherent in starting such a collective. Who is most likely to join? Someone who intends to take benefit from it, or someone who is hoping to never use the benefits?

pound 10y ago

I think it's not about affording traveling itself but to be able to afford everything that comes with it, like consequences, plugging in back upon return, picking up career etc.

mdorazio 10y ago

Economic travel is meaningless if you have debt payments to make, or if you can't afford a plane ticket. Banks don't care if you want to take a year off - they still want their money. Roughly 70% of US undergrads come out of college in debt, with that debt being an average of over $35k. Most of these graduates spend at least all of their 20s paying this off, and then have to juggle mortgages and family obligations for the next 20 years. And of course there's that widely publicized study showing that 63% of Americans can't even afford a $500 emergency bill to repair their car or pay for a medical procedure. Buying a plane ticket to Europe and meals/lodging, even at grocery store & hostels level, is out of the question for average non-tech worker. My point is that if you look at the percentage of Americans who can afford to take a year off work, afford to get to and live in a location like Western Europe, and still have a decent chance of regaining a good job upon return, you've easily excluded 90%+ of the population.