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These are difficult issues. I was among those who voted in the online poll for Brendan Eich's ouster, but eventually, after reading every opinion I could find

These are difficult issues. I was among those who voted in the online poll for Brendan Eich's ouster, but eventually, after reading every opinion I could find and wrestling with the issue for some time, decided I had been wrong to do so. There are some interesting parallels between the two cases. In Eich's case, one of the reasons I decided I had been too hasty was that I didn't see anyone accusing him of actual discriminatory behavior as Mozilla's CTO. Apparently he had done well at keeping his politics out of the workplace. That seemed to me an argument for granting him the same consideration. I don't really understand Thiel's politics. Some of the things he complained about in his RNC speech I understand and agree with as issues, though I don't understand why he thinks Trump is likely to address them. (I do understand why he thinks Hillary is unlikely to, though.) I haven't read any of Thiel's political writings, except for one widely-commented-on piece [0]. He doesn't sound to me like a racist; I'm less sure he's not sexist but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that. His reasons for supporting Trump seem to be highly idiosyncratic. If he's just trying to make the point that there's danger in giving the Democrats too much power, well, I don't disagree with that, though I probably disagree on how much is too much. Anyway, the point is, just as in Eich's case, there seem to be mitigating factors. Well. I don't know the answer, but I offer the following thoughts. It's easier to demonize someone you don't know personally. That in itself suggests that ostracism should be a weapon of last resort. But I understand your anger. If I were in YC and Thiel offered to invest in my startup, I don't know whether I would take his money. [0] https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...

tptacek 10y ago
As I've said elsewhere on the thread: I agree with you about Eich. I have no trouble drawing the line here between Eich and Thiel: * Eich was ousted from a full-time job. Thiel is not an employee of YC. * Eich's beliefs were well within the mainstream; Barack Obama campaigned in opposition to marriage equality. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was quiet. It was mined out of a database and used against him. So far as I can see, he had not made any Mozilla employees uncomfortable. He didn't get on stage at the RNC and use his position at Mozilla to suggest that Silicon Valley opposed marriage equality. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was relatively insignificant. In addition to being such an important Trump surrogate that his actions make the front page of CNN, Thiel donated millions and bundled millions more to the Trump campaign. * For that matter, marriage equality is a substantially different issue than Trumpism. Trump believes Muslims, including US citizens, should be prevented from entering the US. He proposes a religious test for entry into the country. He believes his political opponents should be jailed. He is campaigning against the very legitimacy of the election he's running in. Trump is running against the very idea of equality of citizenship. You can't say all those things about the belief that LGBT people should be denied marriage rights --- in fact, you have pretty good evidence of the difference: thankfully, the cause of marriage equality crushed the cause of traditional marriage. The campaign to oust Eich from his job at Mozilla was wrong. I didn't support it at the time and I don't support it now. I do not feel that way, even a little bit, about the call for Graham and Altman to live up to their own words about Trump.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. * Eich was ousted from a full-time job. Thiel is not an employee of YC. We don't normally consider CEOs to be the sort of person where we have to worry about their ability to find another job. * Eich's beliefs were well within the mainstream; Barack Obama campaigned in opposition to marriage equality. That's a difference of degree, and a smaller one than we would both prefer; Trump did manage to get nominated, after all. I don't think you can say (alas) that Trumpism is completely out of the mainstream in 2016. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was quiet. True, but does it really count for much? * Eich's support for Prop 8 was relatively insignificant. Another difference of degree. For all we know, Eich may have donated a larger fraction of his bank account than Thiel did. * For that matter, marriage equality is a substantially different issue than Trumpism. Marriage equality is one issue and Trump has raised many, that's true. But I think the attitudes in which Prop. 8 support was rooted, and those in which Trumpism is rooted, are essentially identical. For instance, a rearguard action against marriage equality is still being fought in Alabama, and I expect my relatives there are big supporters of both Roy Moore [0] and Trump. In fact it's interesting, now that I think of it, that Trump has not attacked gays; it would certainly play well with much of his audience. Maybe it says something about how far we've come, or maybe he's just too busy attacking Mexicans, Muslims, and women to bother with gays. A better argument might be that Prop. 8 was just a return to the status quo ante, while Trumpism is an existential threat to the nation. Why a smart man like Peter Thiel can't see that is beyond me too. But I can see the argument that Thiel is not evil, just deluded. (P.S. You're a brave man, using asterisks on HN :-) [0] http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/10/lawyer_three_of_suspended_chie.html http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/10/lawyer_t...
  - BrendanEich 10y ago
    Shifty of you to imply both that I can go jobless and potentially unhirable on short notice, and that the lowest possible four figure dollar amount might also be more of my liquid net worth than Thiel's donation is to his bank account balance. One or the other, not both!
    - 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

As I've said elsewhere on the thread: I agree with you about Eich. I have no trouble drawing the line here between Eich and Thiel: * Eich was ousted from a full-time job. Thiel is not an employee of YC. * Eich's beliefs were well within the mainstream; Barack Obama campaigned in opposition to marriage equality. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was quiet. It was mined out of a database and used against him. So far as I can see, he had not made any Mozilla employees uncomfortable. He didn't get on stage at the RNC and use his position at Mozilla to suggest that Silicon Valley opposed marriage equality. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was relatively insignificant. In addition to being such an important Trump surrogate that his actions make the front page of CNN, Thiel donated millions and bundled millions more to the Trump campaign. * For that matter, marriage equality is a substantially different issue than Trumpism. Trump believes Muslims, including US citizens, should be prevented from entering the US. He proposes a religious test for entry into the country. He believes his political opponents should be jailed. He is campaigning against the very legitimacy of the election he's running in. Trump is running against the very idea of equality of citizenship. You can't say all those things about the belief that LGBT people should be denied marriage rights --- in fact, you have pretty good evidence of the difference: thankfully, the cause of marriage equality crushed the cause of traditional marriage. The campaign to oust Eich from his job at Mozilla was wrong. I didn't support it at the time and I don't support it now. I do not feel that way, even a little bit, about the call for Graham and Altman to live up to their own words about Trump.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. * Eich was ousted from a full-time job. Thiel is not an employee of YC. We don't normally consider CEOs to be the sort of person where we have to worry about their ability to find another job. * Eich's beliefs were well within the mainstream; Barack Obama campaigned in opposition to marriage equality. That's a difference of degree, and a smaller one than we would both prefer; Trump did manage to get nominated, after all. I don't think you can say (alas) that Trumpism is completely out of the mainstream in 2016. * Eich's support for Prop 8 was quiet. True, but does it really count for much? * Eich's support for Prop 8 was relatively insignificant. Another difference of degree. For all we know, Eich may have donated a larger fraction of his bank account than Thiel did. * For that matter, marriage equality is a substantially different issue than Trumpism. Marriage equality is one issue and Trump has raised many, that's true. But I think the attitudes in which Prop. 8 support was rooted, and those in which Trumpism is rooted, are essentially identical. For instance, a rearguard action against marriage equality is still being fought in Alabama, and I expect my relatives there are big supporters of both Roy Moore [0] and Trump. In fact it's interesting, now that I think of it, that Trump has not attacked gays; it would certainly play well with much of his audience. Maybe it says something about how far we've come, or maybe he's just too busy attacking Mexicans, Muslims, and women to bother with gays. A better argument might be that Prop. 8 was just a return to the status quo ante, while Trumpism is an existential threat to the nation. Why a smart man like Peter Thiel can't see that is beyond me too. But I can see the argument that Thiel is not evil, just deluded. (P.S. You're a brave man, using asterisks on HN :-) [0] http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/10/lawyer_three_of_suspended_chie.html http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/10/lawyer_t...
- BrendanEich 10y ago
  Shifty of you to imply both that I can go jobless and potentially unhirable on short notice, and that the lowest possible four figure dollar amount might also be more of my liquid net worth than Thiel's donation is to his bank account balance. One or the other, not both!
  - 10y ago