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We're not talking about firing, or employees, or personal political views. Otherwise your argument stands. At issue is the most public endorsement possible (a

We're not talking about firing, or employees, or personal political views. Otherwise your argument stands. At issue is the most public endorsement possible (a keynote speech, and then a 1.25M donation) by a YC partner, and YC's refusal to speak out about it, or distance itself from this extraordinary gesture of support.

nostrademons 10y ago
YC does not (to my knowledge) have a corporate position on the presidential race - I'd welcome any citations where a YC partner, speaking in an official capacity, endorses one of the current presidential candidates. When they have taken corporate political positions, it's usually been narrowly defined, in support of specific legislation that affects the tech industry (eg. anti-SOPA, anti-software-patents, pro-immigration). The vast majority of YC partners' personal positions are strongly pro-Clinton. You can see that just by following sama, paulg, or paultoo on Twitter.
- tptacek 10y ago
  It would suffice for me to see any public reluctance on the part of Paul Graham or Sam Altman to continue to associate professionally with Thiel so long as he is playing this role in American politics. I don't demand that Altman and Graham know exactly what to do about this. I don't demand that they "fire" Thiel (they can't, as Thiel isn't an employee). I don't even demand that they strike him from the roster of Partners to the Regional Partner of YC. I understand that this stuff is complicated and that there's more going on behind the scenes of these relationships than we know. Unfortunately, both Altman and Graham are being supportive of Thiel, despite the fact that he donated $1.25MM to Trump's campaign just days ago.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - edanm 10y ago
    Isn't the fact that they're making it clear that they're against Trump enough? Why do you think they need to also be against Thiel, "just" because of his political activities? Clearly everyone would find it incredibly wrong if someone would withdraw support for someone just because they supported Hillary Clinton, and while most people here think Trump is much worse, he is the head of one of the 2 major parties. You might not like it, but his actions and views do represent a significant portion of the mainstream (which is why this isn't the same as supporting someone from the KKK, which does thankfully lie outside the mainstream). Note: I am in no way endorsing or defending Trump, or Thiel.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      In a real way, Thiel is Trump. He's a part of Trump's political campaign. He's no mere supporter: he's a surrogate. He was placed on stage at the RNC to suggest to the world that Silicon Valley supported Trump. His recent donation to Trump is still on the front page of CNN. You cannot coherently oppose Trump and support Trump's political campaign. Let me put it this way: According to the logic that Altman and Graham are using, if Donald Trump himself were a "part-time partner" at YC, they would be unable to disassociate themselves from him.
      - edanm 10y ago
        There's certainly a line where someone stops being "just" a supporter and becomes something more. E.g. a big complaint against Brendan Eich was that he wasn't just anti-gay-rights, he actually contributed money for the Prop 8 fight. The big question is where that line should be drawn. You say Thiel is a Trump surrogate, but I'm not so sure. Then again, he did donate a substantial amount of money in the last few days, so maybe he really is close enough to the campaign to act as a surrogate, especialy since he is being explicitly given as an example of someone from Silicon Valley who is supporting Trump. It's a hard question - I'm not sure, personally. "You cannot coherently oppose Trump and support Trump's political campaign." Well this part I don't really agree with. A big part of democracy is coherently opposing other people's ideas, while not opposing their right to voice those ideas.
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    I'm curious - is your (and maciej's, if he's still following this thread) position that someone should refuse to associate with anyone who supports Trump? Take Graham and Altman out of the equation - assuming that this is not just a vendetta against YC partners (and the principle of charity compels me to assume that), would you apply this standard to other people you know? Do you have friends and business partners that support Trump, or buy products from Trump-supporting companies? For me personally - I actually have relatively few people in my life that are Trump supporters. But this is mostly an accident of demographics - I went to an elite liberal arts college in what is literally the most liberal region of the country, I worked at Google, I live in the Bay Area, my mom's from NYC, and my dad's an immigrant. I have friends who have family that are hard-core Trump supporter, as well as family myself. It would never occur to me to stop associating with them because of their political views, or the political views of their associates. They have their beliefs, I have mine, and we just don't discuss the subjects where we are diametrically opposed. We interact on the common ground that we do have. According to my principles, the calls for YC to disavow Thiel or stop associating with him are obnoxious for the same reason I believe Trump is unfit to be president. They divide the world into "people like us" and "people against us", and then seek to build a wall between the two groups. If you believe that it should be "us and us" rather than "us vs them", then that includes reaching out to people with whom you disagree and finding the parts that you do agree on.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I understand why people think Maciej has a "vendetta" against YC, but I definitely do not. We considered joining YC's last summer session, after Altman generously invited us. I've recommended several startups to YC, over the objections of other friends to some of the same startups, and YC has made money as a result. I'm personal friends with both current and former YC partners, and numerous YC founders. I started a VC-funded startup in '99-'00 and worked for another VC-funded startup for 4 years after that, and attempted to raise money in '05: I am painfully aware of how abusive Silicon Valley was to tech founders prior to YC, and of all the work YC has done to remediate those abuses. I often feel like YC gets a bad rap. In fact: I even feel like Paul Graham often gets a bad rap. But Paul Graham and Sam Altman are comprehensively wrong about Thiel, and I would be doing them no favors at all to pretend otherwise. I'm Catholic. I come from an Irish Catholic family. I have at last count 13,492 first cousins. I do not know all the names of my aunts and uncles. But I do know that most of them are... "aggressively" pro-life. Some of them support Trump, because they feel a moral obligation to vote for whomever is going to appoint pro-life judges. I do not hold Trump support against my family. Despite the fact that half of HN seems to think I'm a Republican, I am not. But I have plenty of Republican friends. Most of them have repudiated Trump and think he's a disaster for the party. But some of them believe in good faith that the cause of limited government is better served by Trump than by Hillary Clinton. I think they're gravely mistaken. But I don't hold that against them. I'm fine with doing business with any of these people. However, if you're in the audience at a Trump rally whooping and hollering your approval for Trump's claim that some women are too ugly to have been assaulted by him, I want nothing to do with you, at least until you've repudiated that disgusting notion. If you're the person telling reporters that you're going to perform much-needed "racial profiling" at polling places on election day, to intimidate minorities from voting, I want nothing to do with you, at least until you've repudiated that disgusting notion. If you're a billionaire who has stood on the largest imaginable stage and told the nation on live television that Donald Trump is the only honest candidate, and who donated $1.25MM to the Trump campaign after he threatened to jail his political opponent and started a national tour inciting white voters to distrust the votes of minorities in a rigged election, then you aren't a supporter of the Trump campaign. You are part of the Trump campaign. I want nothing to do with you. Nobody who claims they'll "join the resistance" after Trump wins can coherently argue otherwise. I don't demand that Altman and Graham sever ties in any formal way with Thiel. I don't know what that would entail or what's going on behind the scenes. But I do require them not to support Thiel publicly --- at least, if they're going to claim to be part of the resistance against Trump. You can't oppose Trump but defend the Trump campaign.
4wayssnnbb234 10y ago
Mate, stop it. We all know that the whole thing is just marketing for you, like PC bros from South Park that want to get some "puss". This behaviour breeds support for Trump. People feel they are being attack.

nostrademons 10y ago

YC does not (to my knowledge) have a corporate position on the presidential race - I'd welcome any citations where a YC partner, speaking in an official capacity, endorses one of the current presidential candidates. When they have taken corporate political positions, it's usually been narrowly defined, in support of specific legislation that affects the tech industry (eg. anti-SOPA, anti-software-patents, pro-immigration). The vast majority of YC partners' personal positions are strongly pro-Clinton. You can see that just by following sama, paulg, or paultoo on Twitter.

tptacek 10y ago
It would suffice for me to see any public reluctance on the part of Paul Graham or Sam Altman to continue to associate professionally with Thiel so long as he is playing this role in American politics. I don't demand that Altman and Graham know exactly what to do about this. I don't demand that they "fire" Thiel (they can't, as Thiel isn't an employee). I don't even demand that they strike him from the roster of Partners to the Regional Partner of YC. I understand that this stuff is complicated and that there's more going on behind the scenes of these relationships than we know. Unfortunately, both Altman and Graham are being supportive of Thiel, despite the fact that he donated $1.25MM to Trump's campaign just days ago.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- edanm 10y ago
  Isn't the fact that they're making it clear that they're against Trump enough? Why do you think they need to also be against Thiel, "just" because of his political activities? Clearly everyone would find it incredibly wrong if someone would withdraw support for someone just because they supported Hillary Clinton, and while most people here think Trump is much worse, he is the head of one of the 2 major parties. You might not like it, but his actions and views do represent a significant portion of the mainstream (which is why this isn't the same as supporting someone from the KKK, which does thankfully lie outside the mainstream). Note: I am in no way endorsing or defending Trump, or Thiel.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    In a real way, Thiel is Trump. He's a part of Trump's political campaign. He's no mere supporter: he's a surrogate. He was placed on stage at the RNC to suggest to the world that Silicon Valley supported Trump. His recent donation to Trump is still on the front page of CNN. You cannot coherently oppose Trump and support Trump's political campaign. Let me put it this way: According to the logic that Altman and Graham are using, if Donald Trump himself were a "part-time partner" at YC, they would be unable to disassociate themselves from him.
    - edanm 10y ago
      There's certainly a line where someone stops being "just" a supporter and becomes something more. E.g. a big complaint against Brendan Eich was that he wasn't just anti-gay-rights, he actually contributed money for the Prop 8 fight. The big question is where that line should be drawn. You say Thiel is a Trump surrogate, but I'm not so sure. Then again, he did donate a substantial amount of money in the last few days, so maybe he really is close enough to the campaign to act as a surrogate, especialy since he is being explicitly given as an example of someone from Silicon Valley who is supporting Trump. It's a hard question - I'm not sure, personally. "You cannot coherently oppose Trump and support Trump's political campaign." Well this part I don't really agree with. A big part of democracy is coherently opposing other people's ideas, while not opposing their right to voice those ideas.
- nostrademons 10y ago
  I'm curious - is your (and maciej's, if he's still following this thread) position that someone should refuse to associate with anyone who supports Trump? Take Graham and Altman out of the equation - assuming that this is not just a vendetta against YC partners (and the principle of charity compels me to assume that), would you apply this standard to other people you know? Do you have friends and business partners that support Trump, or buy products from Trump-supporting companies? For me personally - I actually have relatively few people in my life that are Trump supporters. But this is mostly an accident of demographics - I went to an elite liberal arts college in what is literally the most liberal region of the country, I worked at Google, I live in the Bay Area, my mom's from NYC, and my dad's an immigrant. I have friends who have family that are hard-core Trump supporter, as well as family myself. It would never occur to me to stop associating with them because of their political views, or the political views of their associates. They have their beliefs, I have mine, and we just don't discuss the subjects where we are diametrically opposed. We interact on the common ground that we do have. According to my principles, the calls for YC to disavow Thiel or stop associating with him are obnoxious for the same reason I believe Trump is unfit to be president. They divide the world into "people like us" and "people against us", and then seek to build a wall between the two groups. If you believe that it should be "us and us" rather than "us vs them", then that includes reaching out to people with whom you disagree and finding the parts that you do agree on.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I understand why people think Maciej has a "vendetta" against YC, but I definitely do not. We considered joining YC's last summer session, after Altman generously invited us. I've recommended several startups to YC, over the objections of other friends to some of the same startups, and YC has made money as a result. I'm personal friends with both current and former YC partners, and numerous YC founders. I started a VC-funded startup in '99-'00 and worked for another VC-funded startup for 4 years after that, and attempted to raise money in '05: I am painfully aware of how abusive Silicon Valley was to tech founders prior to YC, and of all the work YC has done to remediate those abuses. I often feel like YC gets a bad rap. In fact: I even feel like Paul Graham often gets a bad rap. But Paul Graham and Sam Altman are comprehensively wrong about Thiel, and I would be doing them no favors at all to pretend otherwise. I'm Catholic. I come from an Irish Catholic family. I have at last count 13,492 first cousins. I do not know all the names of my aunts and uncles. But I do know that most of them are... "aggressively" pro-life. Some of them support Trump, because they feel a moral obligation to vote for whomever is going to appoint pro-life judges. I do not hold Trump support against my family. Despite the fact that half of HN seems to think I'm a Republican, I am not. But I have plenty of Republican friends. Most of them have repudiated Trump and think he's a disaster for the party. But some of them believe in good faith that the cause of limited government is better served by Trump than by Hillary Clinton. I think they're gravely mistaken. But I don't hold that against them. I'm fine with doing business with any of these people. However, if you're in the audience at a Trump rally whooping and hollering your approval for Trump's claim that some women are too ugly to have been assaulted by him, I want nothing to do with you, at least until you've repudiated that disgusting notion. If you're the person telling reporters that you're going to perform much-needed "racial profiling" at polling places on election day, to intimidate minorities from voting, I want nothing to do with you, at least until you've repudiated that disgusting notion. If you're a billionaire who has stood on the largest imaginable stage and told the nation on live television that Donald Trump is the only honest candidate, and who donated $1.25MM to the Trump campaign after he threatened to jail his political opponent and started a national tour inciting white voters to distrust the votes of minorities in a rigged election, then you aren't a supporter of the Trump campaign. You are part of the Trump campaign. I want nothing to do with you. Nobody who claims they'll "join the resistance" after Trump wins can coherently argue otherwise. I don't demand that Altman and Graham sever ties in any formal way with Thiel. I don't know what that would entail or what's going on behind the scenes. But I do require them not to support Thiel publicly --- at least, if they're going to claim to be part of the resistance against Trump. You can't oppose Trump but defend the Trump campaign.

4wayssnnbb234 10y ago

Mate, stop it. We all know that the whole thing is just marketing for you, like PC bros from South Park that want to get some "puss". This behaviour breeds support for Trump. People feel they are being attack.