3 ms·
In an effort to both help and ensure I am responding to the strongest form of an argument, and not just picking apart easy weaknesses, would you care to bolster
by bobwaycott 10y ago
In an effort to both help and ensure I am responding to the strongest form of an argument, and not just picking apart easy weaknesses, would you care to bolster your claims that:
- freely publishing course materials to the internet-at-large is the same thing as providing educational services for which the universities receive federal funding
- services provided by institutions receiving money from the government includes all services provided--pending your clarification on how releasing information equates to a service provided--entirely, without exemption, and not just those services to which federal funds are directly allocated
- applying federal compulsion to meet desired accessibility goals should apply to individuals who are not the official recipients of the benefits of the programs funded by the federal government (in this instance, meaning the general public of internet users who are non-students desiring to consume freely available information)
I find this automatic set of claims/assumptions to be highly dubious, as it equates releasing information--even if organized by originating course, thus giving the appearance of being an "online course", but actually lacking any involvement or service from the university beyond releasing the material, and thus not really an "online course"--to providing education to enrolled students (for which the university receives funding and is inarguably subject to accessibility restrictions with associated penalties). I think these are, if one does not ignore the nuances of the circumstances, quite different things that weaken the argument for considering them to be services provided by the university. How do you enshrine this in a principle that applies to all actors? Does everything a university sponsors or engages in fall under these principles? Meaning, because they received federal funding for programs A, B, and C, do programs X, Y, and Z fall under federal purview and penalty, as well? Should the internet public really be granted the latitude to expect they can have their cake and eat it, too, where consuming course material for personal edification as a non-student is concerned?
You can check my much lengthier thoughts elsewhere in the thread on this, if you'd like. Also, let's exclude your "They certainly have the means" comment. That, to me, diminishes the force of your argument for principles by concluding it as an argument that the alleged principles only matter because the affected party has the perceived means. I think that severely weakens the case for why this isn't just a grab to hold an entity to a higher standard because they have the money to pay for the burden.
- ahelwer 10y agoAll good areas of inquiry. You call for a stronger chain of reasoning connecting the free online courses to federal funding. I'll start by setting myself back a bit: I don't think Harvard and MIT receive federal funding earmarked for educational services, only research. We can toss in a caveat characterizing federal student loans as funding, but it doesn't change the central issue: no federal funds are explicitly earmarked for free online courses. All that said, it isn't obvious why this should be an issue; the above classification function is significantly weaker than that used in real life, and federal funding binding an entire organization avoids the hairy problems that come with tracking what money goes where in fungible currency. Organizations know the strings attached to federal dollars before choosing to accept them. So yes, receiving federal funding for programs A, B, and C require programs X, Y, and Z to fall under federal purview and penalty. You raise a possible distinction between free online courses, which you reduce to releasing information, and services. This might be delving into semantic argument territory. I would say the onus is on you here to argue why free online courses should not be considered a service offered by the university and thus possibly not subject to accessibility requirements.
- bobwaycott 10y agoI'll accept the onus and point you toward my tackling that matter in some depth in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12720879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12720879 Edit: Please forgive posting a link to another comment. I'm pointing to the other comment only because I feel it is quite thorough, and am not sure the conversation is helped by duplicating the same sentiments, thoughts, and questions. Edit 2: I hope my consideration of the issues and perspectives can pass the smell test of invoking a semantic argument. I genuinely find this particular issue to be one that is nuanced and important, and do not wish to subvert reasoned consideration by quibbling too much over words. Suffice to say, I think this is far more a matter of situational and conceptual difference, not just whether we should rightly use a word to indicate a thing.
- ahelwer 10y agoWell, I was being a bit unfair. Semantic arguments aren't useless per se when value is derived from satisfying a definition or not (as might be the case here). I will take a look at your linked comment.