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26.2% + 21.7% = 47.9%. So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. Also, that doesn't answer my other question

26.2% + 21.7% = 47.9%. So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. Also, that doesn't answer my other question. Other than better support for Unix command line tools, what makes OS X (or Linux) a better platform for devs than Windows 10?

icebraining 10y ago
So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. Yes, but the post you replied to said "in a year or two". Also, that doesn't answer my other question. That's because I don't have an answer, it wasn't me who said "hopefully" :) As long as Linux is considered a first-class platform, I don't really care who's on top.
ekianjo 10y ago
> 26.2% + 21.7% = 47.9%. So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. I said close to 50/50 so it's not false either, if you take in account the fact that there is probably some margin of error anyway. > Other than better support for Unix command line tools, what makes OS X (or Linux) a better platform for devs than Windows 10 Maybe it depends what kind of developer you are/who you talk to, but most devs I interact with tend to live in the command line (and need proper package management as well) - things that Win10 does not do too well yet.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  Pffft. "probably some margin of error anyway" is a gross understatement. It was 47.9% of the 40k developers who responded. Not even a half percent of the entire software development community :) Enterprise devs make up the largest segment of pro developers and Windows rules the enterprise. Win 10 also has the Ubuntu command-line now. I've been using it since beta and it's glorious. Macs can't compete with this - they don't even ship with new GNU utils and you'll have to fight with Apple if you want them because updates will break your setup. Meanwhile it takes 5 minutes to get a modern Unix command-line in Windows. I'm glad to say that I'm quite certain that your hopes of a non-Windows world will never be realized.
retrogradeorbit 10y ago
> Other than better support for Unix command line tools, what makes OS X (or Linux) a better platform for devs than Windows 10? Some that come to mind: Granular packaging systems with everything developer under the sun in them (including binary and source packages). Better support and easier install of a vast array of developer tools and languages (just one example: git). Much more automatable (eg not every install on windows can be automated. Many require GUI interaction). Containerizable. More powerful filesystems like layered filesystems or content addresses filesystems like ZFS. Cloud orchestration tools work better (puppet, chef, ansible). Tiling window managers to streamline screen work. Much wider choice of code editing environments and code manipulation tools (Windows is much more centric around the offerings of Microsoft). Better interoperation with other tools and filesystems (Linux plays much nicer with windows than windows plays with linux). Less bugs in the APIs and development systems themselves (a result of open source enabling bugfixing independent of a vendor). Better system debug and development tools (eg. strace/dtrace/ktrace). Almost every dev tool included in the distributions (no need to go download some dodgy .exe of tucows or where ever). More example open source code to reference and work with makes coding similar ideas less error prone.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "Granular packaging systems with everything developer under the sun in them (including binary and source packages)." Yes, that's true. > "Better support and easier install of a vast array of developer tools and languages (just one example: git)." This falls under Unix command line tools for me, but okay. > "Much more automatable (eg not every install on windows can be automated. Many require GUI interaction)." This is really just the same point as the package management one you already mentioned. > "Containerizable." Windows Server now has native support for Docker. > "More powerful filesystems like layered filesystems or content addresses filesystems like ZFS." Linux's support for ZFS isn't exactly a strong point. Perhaps you had OS X in mind? In any case NTFS is a fairly decent file system, I don't really see it as a weak point for Windows. > "Cloud orchestration tools work better (puppet, chef, ansible)." Automating Windows configuration is easily done through PowerShell. I know that Chef and Ansible both use PowerShell to get their Windows support. I'd suggest taking a look at Desired State Configuration if you're unfamiliar with how these tools utilise the existing infrastructure on Windows. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/dsc/overview https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/dsc/overview > "Tiling window managers to streamline screen work." In my experience, tiling window managers are nice if you've got a keyboard-heavy workflow, but not that much more efficient when you switching around GUI apps. Windows has some basic tiling windows shortcuts built in, plus it now has virtual desktops built in and shortcuts to switch between them, so I don't feel like I'm missing out on much. > "Much wider choice of code editing environments and code manipulation tools (Windows is much more centric around the offerings of Microsoft)." Which code editing environments are you thinking of that you like that aren't also available on Windows? As for the MS tools, if you can show me a better IDE than VS on any platform then I'll be impressed. > "Better interoperation with other tools and filesystems (Linux plays much nicer with windows than windows plays with linux)." The upcoming Linux subsystem for Windows 10 should go a long way in addressing that. > "Less bugs in the APIs and development systems themselves (a result of open source enabling bugfixing independent of a vendor)." Hmm, I don't think you can back that up. Let's put it like this, I've tried Linux multiple times, but I always come back to Windows, and generally speaking that's because of bugs I've found in Linux or Linux software. I have far fewer problems with Windows. Can you share some of the problems you've had with Windows? > "Better system debug and development tools (eg. strace/dtrace/ktrace)." Sure, I'll admit these tools are probably better than the Windows equivalents. > "Almost every dev tool included in the distributions (no need to go download some dodgy .exe of tucows or where ever)." You don't need to get dodgy dev tools, there are plenty of useful dev tools from Microsoft and other well known software companies. > "More example open source code to reference and work with makes coding similar ideas less error prone." Are you familiar with MSDN? If you knew how easy Microsoft makes it to become a proficient Windows coder, you wouldn't be saying that. To be fair to you, there's one advantage of Unix OSes I think you missed, and that better networking tools (such as firewall software).

icebraining 10y ago

So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. Yes, but the post you replied to said "in a year or two". Also, that doesn't answer my other question. That's because I don't have an answer, it wasn't me who said "hopefully" :) As long as Linux is considered a first-class platform, I don't really care who's on top.

ekianjo 10y ago

> 26.2% + 21.7% = 47.9%. So based on that survey the statement that most devs don't use Windows anymore is incorrect. I said close to 50/50 so it's not false either, if you take in account the fact that there is probably some margin of error anyway. > Other than better support for Unix command line tools, what makes OS X (or Linux) a better platform for devs than Windows 10 Maybe it depends what kind of developer you are/who you talk to, but most devs I interact with tend to live in the command line (and need proper package management as well) - things that Win10 does not do too well yet.

WayneBro 10y ago
Pffft. "probably some margin of error anyway" is a gross understatement. It was 47.9% of the 40k developers who responded. Not even a half percent of the entire software development community :) Enterprise devs make up the largest segment of pro developers and Windows rules the enterprise. Win 10 also has the Ubuntu command-line now. I've been using it since beta and it's glorious. Macs can't compete with this - they don't even ship with new GNU utils and you'll have to fight with Apple if you want them because updates will break your setup. Meanwhile it takes 5 minutes to get a modern Unix command-line in Windows. I'm glad to say that I'm quite certain that your hopes of a non-Windows world will never be realized.

retrogradeorbit 10y ago

> Other than better support for Unix command line tools, what makes OS X (or Linux) a better platform for devs than Windows 10? Some that come to mind: Granular packaging systems with everything developer under the sun in them (including binary and source packages). Better support and easier install of a vast array of developer tools and languages (just one example: git). Much more automatable (eg not every install on windows can be automated. Many require GUI interaction). Containerizable. More powerful filesystems like layered filesystems or content addresses filesystems like ZFS. Cloud orchestration tools work better (puppet, chef, ansible). Tiling window managers to streamline screen work. Much wider choice of code editing environments and code manipulation tools (Windows is much more centric around the offerings of Microsoft). Better interoperation with other tools and filesystems (Linux plays much nicer with windows than windows plays with linux). Less bugs in the APIs and development systems themselves (a result of open source enabling bugfixing independent of a vendor). Better system debug and development tools (eg. strace/dtrace/ktrace). Almost every dev tool included in the distributions (no need to go download some dodgy .exe of tucows or where ever). More example open source code to reference and work with makes coding similar ideas less error prone.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "Granular packaging systems with everything developer under the sun in them (including binary and source packages)." Yes, that's true. > "Better support and easier install of a vast array of developer tools and languages (just one example: git)." This falls under Unix command line tools for me, but okay. > "Much more automatable (eg not every install on windows can be automated. Many require GUI interaction)." This is really just the same point as the package management one you already mentioned. > "Containerizable." Windows Server now has native support for Docker. > "More powerful filesystems like layered filesystems or content addresses filesystems like ZFS." Linux's support for ZFS isn't exactly a strong point. Perhaps you had OS X in mind? In any case NTFS is a fairly decent file system, I don't really see it as a weak point for Windows. > "Cloud orchestration tools work better (puppet, chef, ansible)." Automating Windows configuration is easily done through PowerShell. I know that Chef and Ansible both use PowerShell to get their Windows support. I'd suggest taking a look at Desired State Configuration if you're unfamiliar with how these tools utilise the existing infrastructure on Windows. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/dsc/overview https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/dsc/overview > "Tiling window managers to streamline screen work." In my experience, tiling window managers are nice if you've got a keyboard-heavy workflow, but not that much more efficient when you switching around GUI apps. Windows has some basic tiling windows shortcuts built in, plus it now has virtual desktops built in and shortcuts to switch between them, so I don't feel like I'm missing out on much. > "Much wider choice of code editing environments and code manipulation tools (Windows is much more centric around the offerings of Microsoft)." Which code editing environments are you thinking of that you like that aren't also available on Windows? As for the MS tools, if you can show me a better IDE than VS on any platform then I'll be impressed. > "Better interoperation with other tools and filesystems (Linux plays much nicer with windows than windows plays with linux)." The upcoming Linux subsystem for Windows 10 should go a long way in addressing that. > "Less bugs in the APIs and development systems themselves (a result of open source enabling bugfixing independent of a vendor)." Hmm, I don't think you can back that up. Let's put it like this, I've tried Linux multiple times, but I always come back to Windows, and generally speaking that's because of bugs I've found in Linux or Linux software. I have far fewer problems with Windows. Can you share some of the problems you've had with Windows? > "Better system debug and development tools (eg. strace/dtrace/ktrace)." Sure, I'll admit these tools are probably better than the Windows equivalents. > "Almost every dev tool included in the distributions (no need to go download some dodgy .exe of tucows or where ever)." You don't need to get dodgy dev tools, there are plenty of useful dev tools from Microsoft and other well known software companies. > "More example open source code to reference and work with makes coding similar ideas less error prone." Are you familiar with MSDN? If you knew how easy Microsoft makes it to become a proficient Windows coder, you wouldn't be saying that. To be fair to you, there's one advantage of Unix OSes I think you missed, and that better networking tools (such as firewall software).