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>"His supported policies include registration of minorities, Do you have a source for this? What is considered a "minority"? I thought it was directed at "il

>"His supported policies include registration of minorities, Do you have a source for this? What is considered a "minority"? I thought it was directed at "illegal immigrants", which I agree is a dumb idea. But saying it applies to "minorities" is a stretch. >torture, curtailing of the free press, restriction of religious freedom, and reprisals against political enemies" How much worse is it to openly support these things, than to say you don't support them, but do so behind the scenes? Because all these things have happened under the watch of nearly every politician I can think of.

morgante 10y ago
> Do you have a source for this? There are two different proposals I'm thinking of. One for making a national registry of all Muslims in the United States (a religious minority) and another for police being able to demand immigration papers at any time. The problem is that there isn't any way to look at someone and say they are an "illegal immigrant" so you end up with a totalitarian regime where police are stopping minorities and demanding to see their papers. I honestly don't know how anyone can look at Trump and say he's not an authoritarian. He literally advocates stuff straight out of a comic book authoritarian regime: "stop and show me your papers." > How much worse is it to openly support these things, than to say you don't support them, but do so behind the scenes? Much worse. Openly advocating something so abhorrent pushes it into the room of acceptability and makes doing it acceptable en mass. It's the difference between the occasional hate crime and genocide. When something is unacceptable, you can't do it too much of it or you risk causing a scandal. I also having a lot of trouble agreeing that these things "happened under the watch of nearly every politician I can think of." Has Obama thrown political enemies in prison? Has Hillary asked her supporters to violently attack enemies? Heck, has Bush tried to ban an entire religion from the United States? Citations severely needed.
- Udik 10y ago
  stuff straight out of a comic book authoritarian regime: "stop and show me your papers." In France, afaik, it is mandatory to carry an id card and, missing that, the police can stop you for up to 4 hours to verify your identity (according to Wikipedia). If you're a foreigner you have to prove that you are legally resident. The last time I checked, France is not an authoritarian regime out of a comic book.
  - briandear 10y ago
    That is a fact. My wife was detained for hours at a traffic stop because she had left her Carte de Sejour at home (despite having a valid driver's license, proper insurance, etc.) The traffic stop wasn't because she did anything wrong either -- it was a random checkpoint that police do from time to time. Not that it matters, but she's white and speaks perfect French. In Korea, I routinely got stopped on the street to show my ID card. In Mexico, it happens to people all the time (random checkpoints, car searches, etc.) I once spent theee hours -- WITH proper documents while the state police practically disassembled my car for no reason other than having Texas plates and driving while white. You need to prove lawful presence in France to open a bank account, but in Los Angeles, an illegal immigrant can open a bank account without any form of US identification or proof of lawful presence. Calling Trump or the US authoritarian isn't accurate if you measure authoritarianism by the actions of allegedly 'liberal' countries.
  - sgc 10y ago
    Not only France, AFAIK it is basically the standard practice in European countries. It is perfectly normal outside the US to be stopped with no probably cause simply to verify who you are, and if deemed worthwhile, what you are doing. I have been stopped in dozens of countries for procedural controls. I have never felt oppressed, but obviously it could be abused.
    - anexprogrammer 10y ago
      UK is only exception I can think of. Maybe Ireland and Denmark, but not certain. Under Blair there was a plan to introduce, but it was widely opposed. Struck me as a little ironic with how easily UK has accepted surveillance and CCTV. Police need probable cause too, and generally behave well.
- blisterpeanuts 10y ago
  Undoubtedly, enforcement of immigration law can only take place in two types of venues: places of employment and public services such as schools, law enforcement, and social services. Employers are already required to effectively vet applicants for legal residency. They have all sorts of tax forms to fill out and they can be severely fined for hiring illegals off the books. Obviously, as well, if a LEO discovers a faked driver's license during a routine traffic stop, the illegal is in big trouble. Interestingly, deportations have greatly increased during the Obama administration.
viraptor 10y ago
https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-has-big-plans-1303117537878070.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-has-big-plans-130311... > Yahoo News asked Trump whether this level of tracking might require registering Muslims in a database or giving them a form of special identification that noted their religion. He wouldn’t rule it out. > “We’re going to have to — we’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely,” Trump said when presented with the idea. “We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.”

morgante 10y ago

> Do you have a source for this? There are two different proposals I'm thinking of. One for making a national registry of all Muslims in the United States (a religious minority) and another for police being able to demand immigration papers at any time. The problem is that there isn't any way to look at someone and say they are an "illegal immigrant" so you end up with a totalitarian regime where police are stopping minorities and demanding to see their papers. I honestly don't know how anyone can look at Trump and say he's not an authoritarian. He literally advocates stuff straight out of a comic book authoritarian regime: "stop and show me your papers." > How much worse is it to openly support these things, than to say you don't support them, but do so behind the scenes? Much worse. Openly advocating something so abhorrent pushes it into the room of acceptability and makes doing it acceptable en mass. It's the difference between the occasional hate crime and genocide. When something is unacceptable, you can't do it too much of it or you risk causing a scandal. I also having a lot of trouble agreeing that these things "happened under the watch of nearly every politician I can think of." Has Obama thrown political enemies in prison? Has Hillary asked her supporters to violently attack enemies? Heck, has Bush tried to ban an entire religion from the United States? Citations severely needed.

Udik 10y ago
stuff straight out of a comic book authoritarian regime: "stop and show me your papers." In France, afaik, it is mandatory to carry an id card and, missing that, the police can stop you for up to 4 hours to verify your identity (according to Wikipedia). If you're a foreigner you have to prove that you are legally resident. The last time I checked, France is not an authoritarian regime out of a comic book.
- briandear 10y ago
  That is a fact. My wife was detained for hours at a traffic stop because she had left her Carte de Sejour at home (despite having a valid driver's license, proper insurance, etc.) The traffic stop wasn't because she did anything wrong either -- it was a random checkpoint that police do from time to time. Not that it matters, but she's white and speaks perfect French. In Korea, I routinely got stopped on the street to show my ID card. In Mexico, it happens to people all the time (random checkpoints, car searches, etc.) I once spent theee hours -- WITH proper documents while the state police practically disassembled my car for no reason other than having Texas plates and driving while white. You need to prove lawful presence in France to open a bank account, but in Los Angeles, an illegal immigrant can open a bank account without any form of US identification or proof of lawful presence. Calling Trump or the US authoritarian isn't accurate if you measure authoritarianism by the actions of allegedly 'liberal' countries.
- sgc 10y ago
  Not only France, AFAIK it is basically the standard practice in European countries. It is perfectly normal outside the US to be stopped with no probably cause simply to verify who you are, and if deemed worthwhile, what you are doing. I have been stopped in dozens of countries for procedural controls. I have never felt oppressed, but obviously it could be abused.
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    UK is only exception I can think of. Maybe Ireland and Denmark, but not certain. Under Blair there was a plan to introduce, but it was widely opposed. Struck me as a little ironic with how easily UK has accepted surveillance and CCTV. Police need probable cause too, and generally behave well.
blisterpeanuts 10y ago
Undoubtedly, enforcement of immigration law can only take place in two types of venues: places of employment and public services such as schools, law enforcement, and social services. Employers are already required to effectively vet applicants for legal residency. They have all sorts of tax forms to fill out and they can be severely fined for hiring illegals off the books. Obviously, as well, if a LEO discovers a faked driver's license during a routine traffic stop, the illegal is in big trouble. Interestingly, deportations have greatly increased during the Obama administration.

viraptor 10y ago

https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-has-big-plans-1303117537878070.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-has-big-plans-130311... > Yahoo News asked Trump whether this level of tracking might require registering Muslims in a database or giving them a form of special identification that noted their religion. He wouldn’t rule it out. > “We’re going to have to — we’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely,” Trump said when presented with the idea. “We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.”