5 ms·

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and apti

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and aptitude.

wyclif 10y ago
Yours is an anecdotal comment. I'm glad to hear that your company doesn't engage in ageism, but just because you don't doesn't mean others embody the same cultural values. [EDIT] Relevant story from HN last year: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/64-year-old-engineer-sues-google-for-age-discrimination/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/64-year-old-engin...
- purple-dragon 10y ago
  Of course it is anecdotal. It has to be. There is no official, legal definition of diversity consideration in hiring. Nor is there any universal culture of applying it to hiring programmers. Edit: I certainly understand that this type of discrimination occurs... I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management. We all know that "not a good culture fit" can be code for things both fair and unfair.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management. That's spot on, now you have to wonder how many companies have such management and how many - unfortunately - do not.
  - cauterized 10y ago
    Neither are race or gender an active consideration for the vast majority of hiring managers. Just because it isn't among the criteria that they actively apply when filtering candidates doesn't mean the bias doesn't exist.
    - purple-dragon 10y ago
      This issue isn't whether is exists or not (I think it does exist), but that it isn't likely to "qualify for diversity consideration" (whatever that means). Maybe there are scenarios where companies have comparable candidates and need a "tie-breaker", but that's not my experience. Adding someone new to the mix is a big decision for us (small) engineering teams. There's no room for us to award points for circumstances unrelated to job fit and performance.
Sevrene 10y ago
I think to some degree everyone is biased. Even if you say you don't care about age there's still some part of your mind that accounts for that when 'you' decide you like someone or not, whether that's negatively or positively. Affirmative action isn't the solution either, because that's just introducing more bias into the equation. More discrimination cannot beget less discrimination in this case.
- vogt 10y ago
  It helps when you aren't in The San Francisco Bubble. I have hired programmers in cities that aren't as flush with talent (Dallas, for one example), and make no mistake: age made absolutely no difference. We just wanted good programmers. I think we'll see more of that in the US over the next few years, too.
source99 10y ago
Swap out "at all how old you are" with "about your skin color".
- purple-dragon 10y ago
  Why? That's a dumb reason to hire someone too.
Pica_soO 10y ago
Let me guess, you hire with the same managment pattern as everybody else: If of all software-neuroses s/he/it is a controll-freak and thus impresses customers and is easy to handle, he is a good employee. If s/he/it constantly nags about how, the whole company could be reduced to a box with the controll-freaks daily routine as algorithm running inside, you are a chaotic firehead who should have avoid hiring? Attitude and aptitude, sure.
- purple-dragon 10y ago
  You guessed wrong. Are you okay? Cheer up!
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    Sorry, your hiring speech short-circuited some of my wires regarding something else. Yes, im okay. Have a nice day.
    - bbcbasic 10y ago
      It does sound like Radiohead lyrics though. +1
w_t_payne 10y ago
In the past I've acted very deliberately to hire older and more experienced developers; an act specifically designed as a counter to a streak of egregious and dangerous naivete which was running a very real risk of killing our product.
- hitchhiker999 10y ago
  Same experience here, hiring more experienced (generally older) developers works out better sometimes.. Who would have guessed?
Yoric 10y ago
That's nice to hear. However, based on my personal experience, I'm not entirely convinced. When I hired programmers for a startup, I'm pretty sure that I had a unconscious bias towards young candidates, which was at the time justified by the blanket word "attitude" (or "cultural fit"). Now, I'm not claiming that you (or anyone specifically) have the same bias, but I'm pretty sure that I wasn't the only one. You may be a nice exception :)
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  > justified by the blanket word "attitude" I really wish people wouldn't hide behind cultural fit as justification. A number doesn't reveal attitude. I'm past 50, but I haven't yet started to aspire to being being middle aged, and have no slippers, cardigans or golf clubs. If given a choice I'll take many a young startup or company over a similar sized company of people my age. When I look at people my age, I'd guess less than a third have settled into some form of middle age, and those are the friends I've tended to lose touch with. Of the rest, well we probably all-night party a little less, have a few extra commitments, and the kids are a bit older. We all seem to get on with people in their 20s and 30s far easier than my parent's generation did. If attitude is a euphemism for "won't work extra hours and weekends almost constantly", then yeah. Though I gained that attitude in my 20s six months into my second or third job.
  - dalke 10y ago
    Slippers, cardigans and golf clubs are the sign of the 50 year olds of the generation before you. They are not something you take on when you get to your 50s. (As a clearer example, Chloe and Emma are popular names for girls. 100 years ago they were Mary and Dorothy. If you know someone's name you can get an idea of age based on its popularity. But today's Emma will not be changing her name to Dorothy when she becomes a centenarian in the 22nd century.) Modern 50 year olds have a different set of preferences than their parents. Most do not wear the clothing and hairstyles of modern 20 year olds. Will Smith on some interview for Suicide Squad talked about tattoos. All of the younger cast got tattoos. He, as a 40+ year old father of three, didn't feel comfortable doing that. I didn't find that specific interview, but it's also mentioned at https://youtu.be/u3MgN0NimjY?t=220 https://youtu.be/u3MgN0NimjY?t=220 . I can imagine that the 25 years olds of a modern startup might get a tattoo together. Would you join them? When I was in my 20s I would try out all sort of new technologies, for fun. Now I rarely do that, because I think most of it is churn, redoing well-known concepts but with a different flavor, and I think I understand the underlying concepts well enough. But the 25 year old me might look at my lack of experimentation and judge that I'm set in my ways. I can easily believe that a modern startup with 20 somethings might think the same thing about me now, and prefer to hire the 25 year old me than the 45 year old me because of it. At the very least, I'm more likely now to speak up and criticize a technology choice, based on experience. That can easily be interpreted as being a killjoy. I know, because it's happened to me.
flukus 10y ago
> We care about attitude I'm guess the grumpy old man not impressed be "new thing x" that's really a reinvention of something we had 20 years ago will probably get filtered out by this step.
- purple-dragon 10y ago
  Only because he's grumpy. That doesn't have anything to do with age.

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and aptitude.

wyclif 10y ago

Yours is an anecdotal comment. I'm glad to hear that your company doesn't engage in ageism, but just because you don't doesn't mean others embody the same cultural values. [EDIT] Relevant story from HN last year: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/64-year-old-engineer-sues-google-for-age-discrimination/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/64-year-old-engin...

purple-dragon 10y ago
Of course it is anecdotal. It has to be. There is no official, legal definition of diversity consideration in hiring. Nor is there any universal culture of applying it to hiring programmers. Edit: I certainly understand that this type of discrimination occurs... I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management. We all know that "not a good culture fit" can be code for things both fair and unfair.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management. That's spot on, now you have to wonder how many companies have such management and how many - unfortunately - do not.
- cauterized 10y ago
  Neither are race or gender an active consideration for the vast majority of hiring managers. Just because it isn't among the criteria that they actively apply when filtering candidates doesn't mean the bias doesn't exist.
  - purple-dragon 10y ago
    This issue isn't whether is exists or not (I think it does exist), but that it isn't likely to "qualify for diversity consideration" (whatever that means). Maybe there are scenarios where companies have comparable candidates and need a "tie-breaker", but that's not my experience. Adding someone new to the mix is a big decision for us (small) engineering teams. There's no room for us to award points for circumstances unrelated to job fit and performance.

Sevrene 10y ago

I think to some degree everyone is biased. Even if you say you don't care about age there's still some part of your mind that accounts for that when 'you' decide you like someone or not, whether that's negatively or positively. Affirmative action isn't the solution either, because that's just introducing more bias into the equation. More discrimination cannot beget less discrimination in this case.

vogt 10y ago
It helps when you aren't in The San Francisco Bubble. I have hired programmers in cities that aren't as flush with talent (Dallas, for one example), and make no mistake: age made absolutely no difference. We just wanted good programmers. I think we'll see more of that in the US over the next few years, too.

source99 10y ago

Swap out "at all how old you are" with "about your skin color".

purple-dragon 10y ago
Why? That's a dumb reason to hire someone too.

Pica_soO 10y ago

Let me guess, you hire with the same managment pattern as everybody else: If of all software-neuroses s/he/it is a controll-freak and thus impresses customers and is easy to handle, he is a good employee. If s/he/it constantly nags about how, the whole company could be reduced to a box with the controll-freaks daily routine as algorithm running inside, you are a chaotic firehead who should have avoid hiring? Attitude and aptitude, sure.

purple-dragon 10y ago
You guessed wrong. Are you okay? Cheer up!
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  Sorry, your hiring speech short-circuited some of my wires regarding something else. Yes, im okay. Have a nice day.
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    It does sound like Radiohead lyrics though. +1

w_t_payne 10y ago

In the past I've acted very deliberately to hire older and more experienced developers; an act specifically designed as a counter to a streak of egregious and dangerous naivete which was running a very real risk of killing our product.

hitchhiker999 10y ago
Same experience here, hiring more experienced (generally older) developers works out better sometimes.. Who would have guessed?

Yoric 10y ago

That's nice to hear. However, based on my personal experience, I'm not entirely convinced. When I hired programmers for a startup, I'm pretty sure that I had a unconscious bias towards young candidates, which was at the time justified by the blanket word "attitude" (or "cultural fit"). Now, I'm not claiming that you (or anyone specifically) have the same bias, but I'm pretty sure that I wasn't the only one. You may be a nice exception :)

anexprogrammer 10y ago
> justified by the blanket word "attitude" I really wish people wouldn't hide behind cultural fit as justification. A number doesn't reveal attitude. I'm past 50, but I haven't yet started to aspire to being being middle aged, and have no slippers, cardigans or golf clubs. If given a choice I'll take many a young startup or company over a similar sized company of people my age. When I look at people my age, I'd guess less than a third have settled into some form of middle age, and those are the friends I've tended to lose touch with. Of the rest, well we probably all-night party a little less, have a few extra commitments, and the kids are a bit older. We all seem to get on with people in their 20s and 30s far easier than my parent's generation did. If attitude is a euphemism for "won't work extra hours and weekends almost constantly", then yeah. Though I gained that attitude in my 20s six months into my second or third job.
- dalke 10y ago
  Slippers, cardigans and golf clubs are the sign of the 50 year olds of the generation before you. They are not something you take on when you get to your 50s. (As a clearer example, Chloe and Emma are popular names for girls. 100 years ago they were Mary and Dorothy. If you know someone's name you can get an idea of age based on its popularity. But today's Emma will not be changing her name to Dorothy when she becomes a centenarian in the 22nd century.) Modern 50 year olds have a different set of preferences than their parents. Most do not wear the clothing and hairstyles of modern 20 year olds. Will Smith on some interview for Suicide Squad talked about tattoos. All of the younger cast got tattoos. He, as a 40+ year old father of three, didn't feel comfortable doing that. I didn't find that specific interview, but it's also mentioned at https://youtu.be/u3MgN0NimjY?t=220 https://youtu.be/u3MgN0NimjY?t=220 . I can imagine that the 25 years olds of a modern startup might get a tattoo together. Would you join them? When I was in my 20s I would try out all sort of new technologies, for fun. Now I rarely do that, because I think most of it is churn, redoing well-known concepts but with a different flavor, and I think I understand the underlying concepts well enough. But the 25 year old me might look at my lack of experimentation and judge that I'm set in my ways. I can easily believe that a modern startup with 20 somethings might think the same thing about me now, and prefer to hire the 25 year old me than the 45 year old me because of it. At the very least, I'm more likely now to speak up and criticize a technology choice, based on experience. That can easily be interpreted as being a killjoy. I know, because it's happened to me.

flukus 10y ago

> We care about attitude I'm guess the grumpy old man not impressed be "new thing x" that's really a reinvention of something we had 20 years ago will probably get filtered out by this step.

purple-dragon 10y ago
Only because he's grumpy. That doesn't have anything to do with age.