4 ms·

Finland: New surveillance law threatens fundamental rights (2015)

136 points by ff_ 10y ago

helical 10y ago
> 06 Oct 2015 So… did they alter the constitution?
- ff_ 10y ago
  Not yet. Altering the constitution is a slow process - fortunately. The draft/proposal is dated to Jan 2015 [1] (it's in Swedish, sorry), and it was in the works, and came up again today on the newspapers after the Minister of Justice called for a debate on this. Here's an up to date article on this: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_constitutional_changes_to_broaden_official_surveillance_powers/9223709 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_const... EDIT: add sources. [1]: http://www.defmin.fi/sv/uppgifter_och_verksamhet/lagstiftning/lagberedning/lagstiftningen_om_underrattelse_forbattrar_inhamtandet_av_information_om_internationella_militara_hot http://www.defmin.fi/sv/uppgifter_och_verksamhet/lagstiftnin...
metafunctor 10y ago
Like in most countries, changing the constitution in Finland takes time. The Finnish constitution can be changed in one of two ways: A) The parliament accepts the change by a simple majority vote, and the change will "rest" until the next election. After the election, the change will pass with a 2/3 majority vote by the new parliament. B) The parliament deems that the change is urgent by at least a 5/6 majority vote. Then the change will be voted upon and will pass with a 2/3 majority vote. Finland is not “changing the constitution“. Not yet, at least. Such a change has been _proposed_ by a group appointed by the ministry of justice, and is now being _discussed_ in public. None of the above steps to actually change the constitution has taken place yet. I find it unlikely that a 2/3 majority vote for a change like this can be achieved with the currently elected parliament. The annoying thing I find about the news coverage about this is that they make it sound like it's already decided. We're seeing headlines to the tune of ”here are the new wiretap rights for Finnish Security Service”. It is not decided yet.
- SNvD7vEJ 10y ago
  Thanks for the more sane perspective on this. I was like "wtf" when I read this article. As a Swedish citizen, the article got me a bit worried.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Unfortunately, this "wtf" should cover a large part of the news we read. However, here the thing is that the discussion in Finland is about "following the Swedish model", because in Sweden the FRA (Försvarens Radioanstalt) has permission to do things that the corresponding Finnish authorities would like to get.
    - Sharlin 10y ago
      Yep, and before the "FRA law" they were almost certainly already doing the same thing, just illegally.
      - kpil 10y ago
        No need, they probably just have to call their friendly neighbour.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - jabl 10y ago
    Yes, if this proposal were to go through (hopefully not), it would give Finnish authorities roughly similar powers that the corresponding Swedish ones already have. One can always hope that the Finns will reject this dumbfounded proposal, giving an example to the Swedes to repeal their corresponding law.
  - 551199 10y ago
    Finnish traffic goes through Sweden so this is already happening
- Zigurd 10y ago
ff_ 10y ago
Up to date article (5 days ago) on this from the national public-broadcasting company: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_constitutional_changes_to_broaden_official_surveillance_powers/9223709 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_const...
aluhut 10y ago
I guess with Russia around the corner being old school Russia again, that was just a matter of time.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Cannot understand why you're downvoted. It is definitely a concern.
- gribbly 10y ago
  Why would increasing the governments right to spy on their on populace protect them from a Russian aggression ?
  - aluhut 10y ago
    With the situation as it is right now, I'm not sure there is anything that could protect you from Russian aggression. Here it is like with surveillance cameras. They won't jump down from the pole to help you. Still they are all over now being sold with the argument of protection.
  - throw0617 10y ago
    Rights to monitor Internet traffic would allow authorities to have better picture of cyber attacks and maybe allow putting up better defences against them. It is also quite clear that Russia is having various operations where they try to affect the public opinion for example through forum posts. Would be probably quite useful to be able to monitor these as well. Of course, as usual, on the other side you then have the peoples right to privacy and I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons. In general the principle in Finland is that we can't setup ultimate defense against Russia. We can only try to build up defense, which makes attacking us too costly.
- js8 10y ago
  I don't understand your point; are you saying the Finland government is preparing their citizens for the drop in civil liberties after Russia will annex Finland in advance, so the drop wouldn't be so sudden? :-)
aleksei 10y ago
This would be a big misstep for Finland. At the moment, the old forest industry & export is dying off, with no replacement in sight. A viable candidate would be datacenters, which would benefit from the existing factory halls and cooling, climate, and possible future green tech solutions. Along with no domestic mass surveillance, no secret courts and no NSLs, this could be a great "pivot" for the existing infrastructure. If this change were to pass, however, there will be little internet related tech locating to Finland, which is what the government is actually hoping to happen. Also of interest are the reasons behind the proposed change. There has been little to none "national security" issues in Finland, so it's somewhat odd to see it pushed as the main reason. The director of the surveillance police has actually stated in the past that they rely a lot on information passed to them from other surveillance agencies, and that they don't really have anything to give back. I think this is more about amassing data for exchanges between agencies, rather than an any actual threat.
- metafunctor 10y ago
  It is not realistic that data centers would be able to replace even a fraction of the jobs and revenues of the forest industry. For example, the Google data center in Hamina directly employs about 125 people. The taxes are limited to salaries, power, etc. I'm pretty sure (although didn't check) that the data center is not turning a profit, even though it probably does generate a tremendous amount of money for Google.
- kofejnik 10y ago
  They do have a certain neighbour who is generally aggressive, has attacked them only 75 years ago, and is currently attacking its other neighbours. So easy to understand that they need to be very vigilant, especially with terrorist and separatist threats
  - Sharlin 10y ago
    Speaking as a Finn, the sort of hybrid/proxy warfare techniques Russia has employed against Ukraine and Georgia would not work in case of Finland. The closest thing we have to a separatist movement is probably some Ålanders who wouldn't mind if the island belonged to Sweden instead.
Sami_Lehtinen 10y ago
A great blog post about topic in Finnish: http://kasvi.org/?p=670 http://kasvi.org/?p=670 Google translated version: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkasvi.org%2F%3Fp%3D670&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

136 points by ff_ 10y ago

helical 10y ago

> 06 Oct 2015 So… did they alter the constitution?

ff_ 10y ago
Not yet. Altering the constitution is a slow process - fortunately. The draft/proposal is dated to Jan 2015 [1] (it's in Swedish, sorry), and it was in the works, and came up again today on the newspapers after the Minister of Justice called for a debate on this. Here's an up to date article on this: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_constitutional_changes_to_broaden_official_surveillance_powers/9223709 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_const... EDIT: add sources. [1]: http://www.defmin.fi/sv/uppgifter_och_verksamhet/lagstiftning/lagberedning/lagstiftningen_om_underrattelse_forbattrar_inhamtandet_av_information_om_internationella_militara_hot http://www.defmin.fi/sv/uppgifter_och_verksamhet/lagstiftnin...

metafunctor 10y ago

Like in most countries, changing the constitution in Finland takes time. The Finnish constitution can be changed in one of two ways: A) The parliament accepts the change by a simple majority vote, and the change will "rest" until the next election. After the election, the change will pass with a 2/3 majority vote by the new parliament. B) The parliament deems that the change is urgent by at least a 5/6 majority vote. Then the change will be voted upon and will pass with a 2/3 majority vote. Finland is not “changing the constitution“. Not yet, at least. Such a change has been _proposed_ by a group appointed by the ministry of justice, and is now being _discussed_ in public. None of the above steps to actually change the constitution has taken place yet. I find it unlikely that a 2/3 majority vote for a change like this can be achieved with the currently elected parliament. The annoying thing I find about the news coverage about this is that they make it sound like it's already decided. We're seeing headlines to the tune of ”here are the new wiretap rights for Finnish Security Service”. It is not decided yet.

SNvD7vEJ 10y ago
Thanks for the more sane perspective on this. I was like "wtf" when I read this article. As a Swedish citizen, the article got me a bit worried.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Unfortunately, this "wtf" should cover a large part of the news we read. However, here the thing is that the discussion in Finland is about "following the Swedish model", because in Sweden the FRA (Försvarens Radioanstalt) has permission to do things that the corresponding Finnish authorities would like to get.
  - Sharlin 10y ago
    Yep, and before the "FRA law" they were almost certainly already doing the same thing, just illegally.
    - kpil 10y ago
      No need, they probably just have to call their friendly neighbour.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- jabl 10y ago
  Yes, if this proposal were to go through (hopefully not), it would give Finnish authorities roughly similar powers that the corresponding Swedish ones already have. One can always hope that the Finns will reject this dumbfounded proposal, giving an example to the Swedes to repeal their corresponding law.
- 551199 10y ago
  Finnish traffic goes through Sweden so this is already happening
Zigurd 10y ago

ff_ 10y ago

Up to date article (5 days ago) on this from the national public-broadcasting company: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_constitutional_changes_to_broaden_official_surveillance_powers/9223709 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/working_group_tables_const...

aluhut 10y ago

I guess with Russia around the corner being old school Russia again, that was just a matter of time.

ptaipale 10y ago
Cannot understand why you're downvoted. It is definitely a concern.
gribbly 10y ago
Why would increasing the governments right to spy on their on populace protect them from a Russian aggression ?
- aluhut 10y ago
  With the situation as it is right now, I'm not sure there is anything that could protect you from Russian aggression. Here it is like with surveillance cameras. They won't jump down from the pole to help you. Still they are all over now being sold with the argument of protection.
- throw0617 10y ago
  Rights to monitor Internet traffic would allow authorities to have better picture of cyber attacks and maybe allow putting up better defences against them. It is also quite clear that Russia is having various operations where they try to affect the public opinion for example through forum posts. Would be probably quite useful to be able to monitor these as well. Of course, as usual, on the other side you then have the peoples right to privacy and I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons. In general the principle in Finland is that we can't setup ultimate defense against Russia. We can only try to build up defense, which makes attacking us too costly.
js8 10y ago
I don't understand your point; are you saying the Finland government is preparing their citizens for the drop in civil liberties after Russia will annex Finland in advance, so the drop wouldn't be so sudden? :-)

aleksei 10y ago

This would be a big misstep for Finland. At the moment, the old forest industry & export is dying off, with no replacement in sight. A viable candidate would be datacenters, which would benefit from the existing factory halls and cooling, climate, and possible future green tech solutions. Along with no domestic mass surveillance, no secret courts and no NSLs, this could be a great "pivot" for the existing infrastructure. If this change were to pass, however, there will be little internet related tech locating to Finland, which is what the government is actually hoping to happen. Also of interest are the reasons behind the proposed change. There has been little to none "national security" issues in Finland, so it's somewhat odd to see it pushed as the main reason. The director of the surveillance police has actually stated in the past that they rely a lot on information passed to them from other surveillance agencies, and that they don't really have anything to give back. I think this is more about amassing data for exchanges between agencies, rather than an any actual threat.

metafunctor 10y ago
It is not realistic that data centers would be able to replace even a fraction of the jobs and revenues of the forest industry. For example, the Google data center in Hamina directly employs about 125 people. The taxes are limited to salaries, power, etc. I'm pretty sure (although didn't check) that the data center is not turning a profit, even though it probably does generate a tremendous amount of money for Google.
kofejnik 10y ago
They do have a certain neighbour who is generally aggressive, has attacked them only 75 years ago, and is currently attacking its other neighbours. So easy to understand that they need to be very vigilant, especially with terrorist and separatist threats
- Sharlin 10y ago
  Speaking as a Finn, the sort of hybrid/proxy warfare techniques Russia has employed against Ukraine and Georgia would not work in case of Finland. The closest thing we have to a separatist movement is probably some Ålanders who wouldn't mind if the island belonged to Sweden instead.

Sami_Lehtinen 10y ago

A great blog post about topic in Finnish: http://kasvi.org/?p=670 http://kasvi.org/?p=670 Google translated version: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkasvi.org%2F%3Fp%3D670&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...