I'm saying neither of them suck. They both have small things "Wrong" with them that are only "Wrong" because I don't like them. >they didn't cause significant

I'm saying neither of them suck. They both have small things "Wrong" with them that are only "Wrong" because I don't like them. >they didn't cause significant problems That's not a valid criticism of any feature. I'd say that the worst feature of any programming language yet has been pre and post -- and ++. Some of the nastiest bugs I've seen have come from there. In both cases I avoid them. I only really use -- and ++ if I need to, just like ternary operators. > Just because "other languages suck" doesn't mean php doesn't, Ok what about other languages that are good? Python's ternary operator isn't the same as C-style languages but I still think of Python as being good.