6 ms·

Available on AWS in 2017.

by NormlOverrated 10y ago

nickpsecurity 10y ago
The SystemD execution and update engine.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  I mean, it would be more secure than the current one. But that's not saying much. Fun fact: systemd now has an entire command devoted to setting locale, something tyically done through simple text files. Lennart, just stop writing executables that do almost nothing. Despite what you may thing, we don't all have infinite disk space.
  - witty_username 10y ago
    $ du -h --apparent-size /lib/systemd/systemd-localed 336K /lib/systemd/systemd-localed Not much, you could fit a thousand copies of this in 336 MB.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      In comparison, the QNX demo disc had a whole graphical OS in 1.44MB that was more robust than that one file. Seems to be some efficiency or architectural issues in there. ;)
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Given, QNX never really caught on in the wider field of computing AFAIK. This may lend credence to the Godot team's theory that public visibility is based upon how big you are (https://godotengine.org/article/godot-aims-mainstream https://godotengine.org/article/godot-aims-mainstream).
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        I was talking complexity vs size. Gabriel's Worse is Better already tells you that growth has more to do with network effects and marketing than technical correctness. QNX lacked them for desktop or server use but did well in embedded. Almost had a mobile shot but Blackberry blew it totally with marketing plan. EDIT: Read Godot. That was hilarious but I kept seeing too much reality in it.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Of course. My post was less about how QNX's lack of popularity subverts your point (it doesn't), and more about setting up that punchline. There's quite a bit of reality in the article, but not quite enough to depress me. Maybe you've seen more of this sort of thing than I have.
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Ahh gotcha. Far as other thing, have you seen the Web and enterprise BS getting lots of adoption since big names tried them out? And the drift to incomprehensible frameworks with huge dependencies that one can barely maintain with similar security problems and a tiny fraction of efficiency of C++? And now more of them as SaaS? Just thinking there's lots of that bullshit in the article going on in real life. It's that or legacy SAP, Oracle, COBOL, MFC BS. Competing BS exists but sanity gets rarer and rarer.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Oooh. That. I get a miss on a lot of it, because I'm not in industry, and I avoid Java (the natural focal point of incomprehensible frameworks), and frameworks in general. On a daily basis, the worst I have to deal with is SystemD, which is creatively incompotent and best, and downright insane at worst. But it's got a pretty face, and the draw of easy-to-understand unit files (over, say, SVinit), so people don't realize the depths of the madness that lies beneath.
        digi_owl 10y ago
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      But it's still an entirely pointless 336K. I could use that to store: -197 copies of nethack -10% of DarkPlaces -36% of GCC -44% of ZSH -30 copies of CPython (just the executable, of course: that's all you counted) -10% of ZSNES -1.36 copies of XScreenSaver -42% of Teeworlds All of these are more valuable uses of my precious disk space, because all of them actually do something: They actually give me capabilities I previously didn't have.
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        GCC and CPython are great illustrations of what Im talking about. Others are good. Also, Oberon System base with kernel, files, editor, viewer, etc is around 116KB per Wirth's paper on FPGA implementation. So, you get a whole OS with some utilities in between 1/3 and 1/2 of SystemD binary. Also worth noting Oberon includes safety checks, too. ;)
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Oberon might be worth checking out. I've heard neat stuff. However, from what I've seen, it's a bit too verbose for my tastes (the language, not the OS).
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Honestly, I found the tradeoffs of it to be the most interesting. It hits an interesting balance of readable, safe, fast compile, and fast runtime. Includes some OOP and concurrency foundations while barely changing the language. Whole platform can fit in one book. You could theoretically understand whole thing and reimplement in language of your choosing. Was esp good when hardware was weaker and more diverse. Also better starting language than C in education as it can be easy at first with difficulty gradually increased with intro of unsafe constructs. Finally, it's seeing some uptake in embedded with Astrobe IDE. So, that's a quick review. The main one you'll find is older system where A2 Bluebottle is latest. Runs fast, too.
        10y ago

Available on AWS in 2017.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

The SystemD execution and update engine.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
I mean, it would be more secure than the current one. But that's not saying much. Fun fact: systemd now has an entire command devoted to setting locale, something tyically done through simple text files. Lennart, just stop writing executables that do almost nothing. Despite what you may thing, we don't all have infinite disk space.
- witty_username 10y ago
  $ du -h --apparent-size /lib/systemd/systemd-localed 336K /lib/systemd/systemd-localed Not much, you could fit a thousand copies of this in 336 MB.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    In comparison, the QNX demo disc had a whole graphical OS in 1.44MB that was more robust than that one file. Seems to be some efficiency or architectural issues in there. ;)
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Given, QNX never really caught on in the wider field of computing AFAIK. This may lend credence to the Godot team's theory that public visibility is based upon how big you are (https://godotengine.org/article/godot-aims-mainstream https://godotengine.org/article/godot-aims-mainstream).
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        I was talking complexity vs size. Gabriel's Worse is Better already tells you that growth has more to do with network effects and marketing than technical correctness. QNX lacked them for desktop or server use but did well in embedded. Almost had a mobile shot but Blackberry blew it totally with marketing plan. EDIT: Read Godot. That was hilarious but I kept seeing too much reality in it.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Of course. My post was less about how QNX's lack of popularity subverts your point (it doesn't), and more about setting up that punchline. There's quite a bit of reality in the article, but not quite enough to depress me. Maybe you've seen more of this sort of thing than I have.
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Ahh gotcha. Far as other thing, have you seen the Web and enterprise BS getting lots of adoption since big names tried them out? And the drift to incomprehensible frameworks with huge dependencies that one can barely maintain with similar security problems and a tiny fraction of efficiency of C++? And now more of them as SaaS? Just thinking there's lots of that bullshit in the article going on in real life. It's that or legacy SAP, Oracle, COBOL, MFC BS. Competing BS exists but sanity gets rarer and rarer.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Oooh. That. I get a miss on a lot of it, because I'm not in industry, and I avoid Java (the natural focal point of incomprehensible frameworks), and frameworks in general. On a daily basis, the worst I have to deal with is SystemD, which is creatively incompotent and best, and downright insane at worst. But it's got a pretty face, and the draw of easy-to-understand unit files (over, say, SVinit), so people don't realize the depths of the madness that lies beneath.
        digi_owl 10y ago
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    But it's still an entirely pointless 336K. I could use that to store: -197 copies of nethack -10% of DarkPlaces -36% of GCC -44% of ZSH -30 copies of CPython (just the executable, of course: that's all you counted) -10% of ZSNES -1.36 copies of XScreenSaver -42% of Teeworlds All of these are more valuable uses of my precious disk space, because all of them actually do something: They actually give me capabilities I previously didn't have.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      GCC and CPython are great illustrations of what Im talking about. Others are good. Also, Oberon System base with kernel, files, editor, viewer, etc is around 116KB per Wirth's paper on FPGA implementation. So, you get a whole OS with some utilities in between 1/3 and 1/2 of SystemD binary. Also worth noting Oberon includes safety checks, too. ;)
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Oberon might be worth checking out. I've heard neat stuff. However, from what I've seen, it's a bit too verbose for my tastes (the language, not the OS).
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Honestly, I found the tradeoffs of it to be the most interesting. It hits an interesting balance of readable, safe, fast compile, and fast runtime. Includes some OOP and concurrency foundations while barely changing the language. Whole platform can fit in one book. You could theoretically understand whole thing and reimplement in language of your choosing. Was esp good when hardware was weaker and more diverse. Also better starting language than C in education as it can be easy at first with difficulty gradually increased with intro of unsafe constructs. Finally, it's seeing some uptake in embedded with Astrobe IDE. So, that's a quick review. The main one you'll find is older system where A2 Bluebottle is latest. Runs fast, too.
        10y ago