5 ms·

Are you seriously this naive, or are you astroturfing? The corporate media in the west is a lustily willing tool of neocon and neoliberal propaganda itself, no

by pdx 10y ago

Are you seriously this naive, or are you astroturfing? The corporate media in the west is a lustily willing tool of neocon and neoliberal propaganda itself, no Russians needed. If you have ignored that fact for the last four decades, I wonder how you continue to ignore it in the face of the contents of the daily WikiLeaks dumps?

lisivka 10y ago
I am already in Russian kill list, since 2008, so I'm not naїve anymore. IMHO, you are mismatching regular propaganda with Russian propaganda (AKA Informational War). Please, read linked book above, it contains in depth explanation of the topic by European Union.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- pdx 10y ago
  John Demjanjuk? What the hell does a Nazi guard have to do with Russia? As for your other link. I did look at it. Here's a paragraph talking about Russian Television News. The underlying message is simple: the United States is engaged in a selfish, ruthless bid for world domination. By implication, anything Russia or any other country can do to resist this is commendable and justified. It portrays the foundations of modern Euro-Atlantic security—including NATO enlargement to former communist countries and Western support for Ukraine—as hypocritical and unjust. I gotta say dude, I agree with Russia here. Putting Nukes on their border when we freaked out (rightly so) when they put nukes on ours in the 60's, is fucking hypocritical and unjust.
  - blackguardx 10y ago
    The US put anti-ballistic missiles in Poland, not nuclear weapons. Or am I missing something?
    - code_sardaukar 10y ago
      Putin made two points about this in June, 2016[0]. First, it's not possible to verify what's in the warheads of anti-ballistic missiles. Second, defense and offense are part of a single set of capabilities. If you remove the opponent's ability to retaliate against a first strike, that is just as dangerous to them as if you had increased your offensive capability. I'm well out of my depth in terms of judging if these statements are true, but this is what he said. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo
      - blackguardx 10y ago
        The issue isn't the tactical implications of putting ABM launchers in Poland. The issue is the false claim (propaganda?) that the US put nuclear weapons in Poland.
        pdx 10y ago
        I'm actually talking about Romania, which isn't technically on the border, if we now insist that Ukraine is not Russia affiliated, but still damn close, missile fly time wise. And yes, they are Nukes. They were moved there after the Turkish 'coup'. https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves...
        blackguardx 10y ago
        Do you have a reputable source for that?
  - lisivka 10y ago
    FBI confirmed, after death of Demianiuk that the single evidence against USA citizen was probably faked by KGB[1]. Despite that, USA deported Demianiuk twice: to Israel, where Supreme Court If Israel declared him innocent, then to Germany, where he died before end of court. [1]: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4056137,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4056137,00.html
- lostlogin 10y ago
  "I am already in Russian kill list" can you explain this?
  - lisivka 10y ago
    They tried to kill me in december of 2008, but I was lucky. Then few more attempts were made. One was almost successful - my friend with same name was killed by mistake instead of me. I hired retired policemen to investigate and he jailed few of them, then Russians killed him too. Assassination of political opponents is common practice in Russia since 1917.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Who are "they" and "he"? What part of your politics is so offensive to them? You aren't in Russia now?
      - lisivka 10y ago
        I newer was in Russia, I'm from Ukraine. I'm similar to Bellingcat, doing amateur counterintelligence.
matt4077 10y ago
That's a bit of a false equivalence. There is an actual group of people paid by government in Russia, sitting at a table saying "what should be broadcast on the 8pm news that would undermine the dutch elections". There is – conspiracy theories notwithstanding – no such group in the west. Sure, there's propaganda, but they can't write the article themselves. They have to work journalists using the same methods as corporate PR instead of faxing over the article they'd like to see. Are most journalists supporters of the status quo? Yes, of course – because they're a product of that status quo, i. e. society. If you grow up in a western country nowadays, and you get some perspective and your mother didn't drink too much while pregnant, you can't escape the conclusion that despite all flaws, the current system is pretty much the best we've had. journalists don't ask "the big questions" in every article because we've achieved a level of stability and safety where "asking the big questions" is a losing proposition: Just like I would not agree to have 10% of my genome scrambled, I don't take anyone serious who wants major changes in "the system": the system is sufficiently optimized to make entropy more of a risk than a chance, and even if we may be caught in a local maximum, I'd rather try a bit of hill climbing than subjecting my life to a risky exploration of state space.
- pdx 10y ago
  I like your last paragraph. It sounds smart. A really smart lobster in a slowly heating pot might end up saying the same thing, but in his case, he would be wrong. Personally, I think we're being slowly boiled.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    Oh, I'm feeling the heat. I'm just saying we shouldn't make Donald Trump head lobster, even though he has a wonderful red face – and he's is the exact product of nebulous conspiracy theories about the media and the elite and how they are all controlled by some secret cabal. That just distracts from the actual causes of problems, and actual ways to solve them. It mistakes failures on outcome for flaws in the system. An example: I am fundamentally opposed to the PATRIOT act and warrantless wiretapping. But I don't think it was passed because the Military-Industrial complex controls congress. I believe it was passed in a completely legitimate way by democratically elected politicians voting for something they actually believed in. I also believe that at the time the PATRIOT act would have received overwhelming support from the public. I just think those congressmen are idiots, and the american public is largely idiotic enough to deserve them. So it doesn't help screaming obscenities at NYT and WSJ reporters. You have to make your actual case to actual people to change anything.

by pdx 10y ago

lisivka 10y ago

I am already in Russian kill list, since 2008, so I'm not naїve anymore. IMHO, you are mismatching regular propaganda with Russian propaganda (AKA Informational War). Please, read linked book above, it contains in depth explanation of the topic by European Union.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pdx 10y ago
John Demjanjuk? What the hell does a Nazi guard have to do with Russia? As for your other link. I did look at it. Here's a paragraph talking about Russian Television News. The underlying message is simple: the United States is engaged in a selfish, ruthless bid for world domination. By implication, anything Russia or any other country can do to resist this is commendable and justified. It portrays the foundations of modern Euro-Atlantic security—including NATO enlargement to former communist countries and Western support for Ukraine—as hypocritical and unjust. I gotta say dude, I agree with Russia here. Putting Nukes on their border when we freaked out (rightly so) when they put nukes on ours in the 60's, is fucking hypocritical and unjust.
- blackguardx 10y ago
  The US put anti-ballistic missiles in Poland, not nuclear weapons. Or am I missing something?
  - code_sardaukar 10y ago
    Putin made two points about this in June, 2016[0]. First, it's not possible to verify what's in the warheads of anti-ballistic missiles. Second, defense and offense are part of a single set of capabilities. If you remove the opponent's ability to retaliate against a first strike, that is just as dangerous to them as if you had increased your offensive capability. I'm well out of my depth in terms of judging if these statements are true, but this is what he said. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo
    - blackguardx 10y ago
      The issue isn't the tactical implications of putting ABM launchers in Poland. The issue is the false claim (propaganda?) that the US put nuclear weapons in Poland.
      - pdx 10y ago
        I'm actually talking about Romania, which isn't technically on the border, if we now insist that Ukraine is not Russia affiliated, but still damn close, missile fly time wise. And yes, they are Nukes. They were moved there after the Turkish 'coup'. https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves...
        blackguardx 10y ago
        Do you have a reputable source for that?
- lisivka 10y ago
  FBI confirmed, after death of Demianiuk that the single evidence against USA citizen was probably faked by KGB[1]. Despite that, USA deported Demianiuk twice: to Israel, where Supreme Court If Israel declared him innocent, then to Germany, where he died before end of court. [1]: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4056137,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4056137,00.html
lostlogin 10y ago
"I am already in Russian kill list" can you explain this?
- lisivka 10y ago
  They tried to kill me in december of 2008, but I was lucky. Then few more attempts were made. One was almost successful - my friend with same name was killed by mistake instead of me. I hired retired policemen to investigate and he jailed few of them, then Russians killed him too. Assassination of political opponents is common practice in Russia since 1917.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Who are "they" and "he"? What part of your politics is so offensive to them? You aren't in Russia now?
    - lisivka 10y ago
      I newer was in Russia, I'm from Ukraine. I'm similar to Bellingcat, doing amateur counterintelligence.

matt4077 10y ago

That's a bit of a false equivalence. There is an actual group of people paid by government in Russia, sitting at a table saying "what should be broadcast on the 8pm news that would undermine the dutch elections". There is – conspiracy theories notwithstanding – no such group in the west. Sure, there's propaganda, but they can't write the article themselves. They have to work journalists using the same methods as corporate PR instead of faxing over the article they'd like to see. Are most journalists supporters of the status quo? Yes, of course – because they're a product of that status quo, i. e. society. If you grow up in a western country nowadays, and you get some perspective and your mother didn't drink too much while pregnant, you can't escape the conclusion that despite all flaws, the current system is pretty much the best we've had. journalists don't ask "the big questions" in every article because we've achieved a level of stability and safety where "asking the big questions" is a losing proposition: Just like I would not agree to have 10% of my genome scrambled, I don't take anyone serious who wants major changes in "the system": the system is sufficiently optimized to make entropy more of a risk than a chance, and even if we may be caught in a local maximum, I'd rather try a bit of hill climbing than subjecting my life to a risky exploration of state space.

pdx 10y ago
I like your last paragraph. It sounds smart. A really smart lobster in a slowly heating pot might end up saying the same thing, but in his case, he would be wrong. Personally, I think we're being slowly boiled.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Oh, I'm feeling the heat. I'm just saying we shouldn't make Donald Trump head lobster, even though he has a wonderful red face – and he's is the exact product of nebulous conspiracy theories about the media and the elite and how they are all controlled by some secret cabal. That just distracts from the actual causes of problems, and actual ways to solve them. It mistakes failures on outcome for flaws in the system. An example: I am fundamentally opposed to the PATRIOT act and warrantless wiretapping. But I don't think it was passed because the Military-Industrial complex controls congress. I believe it was passed in a completely legitimate way by democratically elected politicians voting for something they actually believed in. I also believe that at the time the PATRIOT act would have received overwhelming support from the public. I just think those congressmen are idiots, and the american public is largely idiotic enough to deserve them. So it doesn't help screaming obscenities at NYT and WSJ reporters. You have to make your actual case to actual people to change anything.