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When Librarians Are Silenced
- golergka 10y agoI find it curious how the same political forces can be on the offensive against online trolling and 4chan culture and at the same time defend offline trolling and harrasment as freedom of spewch. Regardless of my own opinion on the matter, it's just illogical.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoI think the argument centers around the idea that hatespeech should be banned, or something. I don't care: I know where I stand. Free speech is a good thing, even with sites like 4chan, and if you don't wish people to speak freely within a website or location, make the rules for what they can say known ahead of time, and enforce them fairly.
- golergka 10y agoI specifically didn't state my opinion on the matter here, because it's irrelevant: I'm only highlighting the inconsistency of "left"'s position. Your position doesn't have this inconsistency and therefore, is much more logical.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoI don't know about my position not being left. I mean, I am pretty left. I think the difference is, I'm not insane, so you don't hear my position on the nightly news. There are as many crazy leftists are there are crazy rightists: the trick is to avoid both.
- Overtonwindow 10y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12638913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12638913
- joesmo 10y agoWhite people are learning to never call/invite the police the hard way. Fascinating.
- jimmywanger 10y agoLibrarians are unsung heroes. I've noticed that no matter their personal political affiliations, they're generally extremely against any sort of censorship at all. Most I've talked to believe that there are no bad ideas, and that if you ban ideas or books, more people will tend to want to read them.
- Mz 10y agoif you ban ideas or books, more people will tend to want to read them. Studies and real life incidents prove this to be true.
- chinese_dan 10y ago"Donald Trump has encouraged the muzzling of reporters and the suppression of political protest, while arguing that government agencies aren’t doing enough spying on private citizens, especially Muslims" When you have political fact-checkers actually trying to claim that Trump thought email was 'bleached' with actual bleach, by taking his entire conversation out of context, I don't blame him. The media is clearly biased and working with the DNC to destroy all of their political enemies. This is corruption at the national-level needs to be stopped. The problem is that if you accuse any Mulim of anything in this country (when you have evidence or a good reason), you are called an 'Islamaphobe'..mostly because of PC culture. " case entitled “Black Lives Matter— Books About African American Experiences” and featuring novels by Toni Morrison and others. Even after the library agreed to adjust the exhibit sign’s language to read “Books about Black Lives—The African American Experience,” two of the four officers resigned in protest." They are allowed to protest...and resign. just like BLM. Why is this wrong? "both Kansas City incidents is the extent to which they illustrate the gap that has opened between police and the communities in which they work—a divide that, with horrifying regularity, produces far more disastrous and violent results in our inner cities." This goes both ways. There is fault on both sides and until there is personal responsibility, things will only get worse. "In fact, public libraries are among the very few remaining places where all Americans can meet to exchange ideas and listen to opposing viewpoints for free." There are many Americans that choose not to go to the library. How is this the fault of the system? "The right to read, to think, to discuss and listen to ideas in a public forum is essential to an open society, as is our individual privacy." I agree. But, you can't welcome an 'open and honest' discussion and then when someone discusses something that offends you, call them out as a 'racist', 'sexist', or 'islamaphobe'. In our current state of things, we can't really have an open and honest discussion about anything important. Things like social media has only made it worse, because mobs can now create public policy based on rumors and hearsay and destroy their enemies with lies. Our current society is actually starting to look more like China or the Soviet Union every day.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoDonald Trump has actually made Islamophobic statements. Disparaging people as racist or sexist or Islamophobic without evidence is a horrific act. But there's plenty of evidence here. PC culture is a problem, and it's awful, but it's not the problem in this case. As for the police being allowed to protest, I agree that I can't think of anything especially wrong with that.
- 0xCMP 10y agoI keep learning this lesson over and over again: never call police unless you want them to silence someone or use force. Cause if you do anyways you're gonna learn the hard way that's what they can do if they want and there is little recourse.
- r00fus 10y agoI've heard stories about people who call firefighters that would have instead called police... because they fear the police would just show up and shoot their way to a closed case.
- noonespecial 10y agoA firefighter is a kind of engineer. A policeman is a kind of soldier. It shows in how they approach problems.
- llukas 10y ago> A policeman is a kind of soldier. Very American approach. Visit Europe sometimes and watch how police operates there. Or compare how long it takes to train police officer in EU countries and US.
- M_Grey 10y agoA policeman is a kind of person with a gun, and too much trust placed in them by the courts.
- Riseed 10y agoThe fire department attracts helpers. That's certainly also true of the police department, but they also attract those who like to exert power over others. (At least in the USA.)
- mcguire 10y ago"...But the prosecutor’s office has announced that it (in co-operation with Hawkins’s employer, the Jewish Community Foundation) will go forward with the cases against the both the librarian and the patron." The Community Foundation says otherwise: "May 9 Event "The Jewish Community Foundation and the Truman Library Institute co-sponsored a program featuring Ambassador Dennis Ross on May 9, 2016 for which the Kansas City Public Library served as the venue. In the spirit of encouraging dialogue, the event included a live question-and-answer opportunity. During this period, a series of actions by a questioner and a library employee began that resulted in their arrests by local law enforcement. We take this situation very seriously. "Although we were not consulted on the charges and are not a party to the court proceedings, for many weeks The Jewish Community Foundation has been engaged in the matter to encourage a resolution that would be acceptable to all parties. We continue to cooperate in this matter. "Know that we respect and will always support First Amendment rights. While it is inappropriate for the Jewish Community Foundation to comment further because of pending legal proceedings, we will share additional information as opportunities arise." https://www.jcfkc.org/content/statement https://www.jcfkc.org/content/statement The Truman Library Institute doesn't seem to have anything, although their photos of the event do not show any of the events. http://trumanlibraryinstitute.org/interview-dennis-ross/ http://trumanlibraryinstitute.org/interview-dennis-ross/
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- mcguire 10y agoJust for the record, I believe that the Jewish Community Foundation of Kansas City is completely responsible for the behavior of its employees. Including the off-duty police it hired.
- guelo 10y agoThat statement doesn't actually say anything and is just insulting lawyer-speak. Trying to read between the lines "engaged in the matter to encourage a resolution that would be acceptable to all parties" to me sounds like they have been pressing charges.
- M_Grey 10y agoIt's simple... police in this country need oversight, and not from within their own departments or detached units like IA. Right now we're just fighting to have some minimal oversight in the form of the public's right to record.
- 08-15 10y agoI don't see an issue of free speech here. All I can see is a thug using the cover of a police uniform to beat up people he doesn't like with impunity. In a just world, Hawkins would be charged with "inflicting grievous bodily harm" (a torn ligament in your knee is no joke, it might never heal), be locked away for a while and made to pay substantial restitution.
- jomamaxx 10y agoThug? He was hired and acting under the orders of the Library's staff. Though the Library is 'owned by the government' - it is not 'public property' - for example, you can't do or say anything you want, as you could on the sidewalk. Though it seems one of the Library's staff was interceding on behalf of the accused - the cop (effectively acting as a cop - and he's hired to do security, so let's not refer to this as some 'random cop who was off duty and saw something) was acting in the interest of the Library - it's up to them who to eject and who not to. I think the real question here is was the cop acting on his own initiative or at the best of the people that hired him. If the Library's staff wanted the man out, then it's likely their issue. If the cop was kicking some guy out wherein his employers wanted the person to stay - well then that's just weird. But if a authorized security person for a private engagement asks you to leave - you definitely have to leave, and any kerfluffle you start is your escalation. It seems that the library is intent on pressing charges? Did I read that correctly? In which case the cop was obviously acting on their regard, and perfectly within his right to eject someone. I think that this guy's beef should be with the Library, not the cop, if that is indeed the case.
- jomamaxx 10y agoIf a security guard was asking someone to leave at the behest of the library's staff - then this has absolutely nothing to do with police, security guards or any of it.
- DanBC 10y agoThe article mentions: That one of the people with criminal charges is an employee of the library who tried to get the guard to stop assaulting a member of the public: > Both the librarian and the patron face criminal charges. That the guard had ignored their instructions about not interfering with people who pose no risk of harm to the other guests: > According to the library, as part of the agreement nobody was to be prevented from asking a controversial question and the security team would consult with library officials before ejecting any nonviolent patrons. That the question asker had offered to leave if asked? > Rothe-Kushel can be heard saying, “Ask me to leave [and] I will leave.” and so on. I mean, this ... > When he bounced out of the chair onto the floor, the guards forced him back into the chair, and handcuffed him. ... is a criminal offence in England.
- suprgeek 10y agoOff-Duty or On-Duty Policemen are under the belief that any questioning - "Aggressive Talk" i.e. even non-cursing but impolite language is grounds for immediate "stomping". Unless you immediately comply they will physically harm you. Until a few high-profile examples are made where this kind of behavior is harshly punished (dismissal, imprisonment, etc) they will not change. The first amendment is meaningless if you get shot/beaten/jailed every time you speak aggressively in front of the Government. The librarian while a Hero is largely collateral damage - this is story about Police brutality pure and simple.
- jomamaxx 10y agoThis is false and insulting. Though I generally agree cops are not always the most normal citizens, the idea that you'll get beat up for taking assertively to a cop is false. If you did this while pulled over, 99% chance they ask you to 'get out of the car'. And that would be the end of the escalation. "The first amendment is meaningless if you get shot every time you speak aggressively in front of the Government." - take this to TheBlaze or whatever.
- M_Grey 10y agoReading this and your other comment I have to ask, are you the cop, or is it someone you're related to, friends with, or in a relationship with?
- jomamaxx 10y agoI am not a cop, I don't know any cops, and none are in my family. I just don't hate cops. But I do know that 99.999% of being a cop is boring, difficult and they put up with idiots and crazy people - and often 'actual mentally ill people' all day, every day, in often complex situations, and they almost overwhelmingly do a good job. If you 'have a concern about free speech' - you should be far more concerned about the vast number of people who are 'banned form campus' for having relatively normal views, but which are inconsistent with those of the 'safe zone' generation of totalitarians. The 'totalitarianism' is not in some random guy getting ejected - maybe on wrongful terms - out of a discussion for making frankly offensive statements - but the limits on who can speak and why, largely driven by zealot students and faculty on campus, who usually represent a tiny minority of students and yet get their way anyhow. When there is agitation and confrontation - a cops natural response is to 'can it' - and I don't mind this at all - though I would hope that if there is no crime committed that no charges are validated. A judge will eventually look at this, and if there's no validity to the charges, then they will likely be tossed.