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For the record, I'm certainly sympathetic to arguments re: wealth inequality. I've just observed first-hand that it's possible to create value without taking so

For the record, I'm certainly sympathetic to arguments re: wealth inequality. I've just observed first-hand that it's possible to create value without taking something away from someone else.

crimsonalucard 10y ago
The value was never created. It was extracted from a resource. Creation implies that it came from nothing. It is highly unlikely whatever you created came from nothing.
- mhluongo 10y ago
  Value is a subjective thing. Of course it can be created- if I decide to value something.
  - crimsonalucard 10y ago
    Then when you value an apple to be one billion trillion dollars did you increase the economy by one billion trillion dollars? No. That makes no sense. There is value and then there is intrinsic value aka True value. True value is extracted not created.
    - mhluongo 10y ago
      Ah. Here you'll find you're miles from most people's definition.
      - crimsonalucard 10y ago
        Nobody in the real world thinks value is subjective because if I subjectively valued an apple at two billion dollars everyone would think I'm crazy. Only people who blindly read economic textbooks will take that misguided definition at face value.
        mhluongo 10y ago
        People who blindly read textbooks, as well as anyone with real world market experience. If you believe in economic value as an objective truth, and not based on the subjective view of a buyer or seller, we have no common ground to continue this discussion.
        crimsonalucard 10y ago
        We do have common ground. The common ground is exactly as you say: real world people with real market experience. But before I get into that real world example... you just threatened to end the discussion if I disagree with you. This is weak. I am telling you I can end this argument not on a mere disagreement... I can end this argument with factual, non-subjective evidence that will prove you wrong. Now, onto the real world example: Warren Buffet, arguably one of the most successful investors on the planet. Warren Buffet operates on a investment strategy known as investing on intrinsic value. In other words he believes that the market fluctuations of a stock price by the daily subjective valuations of day traders are meaningless, he peers beyond the noise and picks stocks based off of a very real economic concept called "intrinsic value" or a true value separate from the subjective valuations of people. Intrinsic value is a very real and actual concept. Warren Buffet believes it and many many other real world and experienced investors follow the strategy as well. See sources below: This link is solid proof intrinsic value exists as a theory in economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value This link shows intrinsic value applied in finance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance) This link shows intrinsic value applied as a stock investment strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_investing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_investing This is a biography on warren buffet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett Academia and "most people" are not unanimously sided with you. The above argument is solid proof. This is not a mere disagreement and if you end the discussion here it's an admission of total and utter loss.
        mhluongo 10y ago
        Quick thoughts: You didn't provide any "non-subjective evidence" - you just reframed what you think my position is to knock it down. I'm familiar with value investing. It's not clear to me why you believe the occasional success of value investors is proof in inherent value as a universal economic truth. I haven't claimed anything about value other than that it's subjective- that doesn't preclude, for example, a company's perceived value relying on a number of other subjective values. Anyway, again, I don't think we're getting anywhere here, and I think framing a discussion as requiring "admission of total and utter loss" to leave is childish and the hallmark of a troll. I'm equal parts embarrassed and impressed that I've been strung along this long.
- MrFantastic 10y ago
  A painter creates value when they add color to a blank canvas. Some colored canvases are worth millions of dollars.
  - crimsonalucard 10y ago
    The value was not created. The value was extracted from supplies, skill and time required to paint it.

For the record, I'm certainly sympathetic to arguments re: wealth inequality. I've just observed first-hand that it's possible to create value without taking something away from someone else.

crimsonalucard 10y ago

The value was never created. It was extracted from a resource. Creation implies that it came from nothing. It is highly unlikely whatever you created came from nothing.

mhluongo 10y ago
Value is a subjective thing. Of course it can be created- if I decide to value something.
- crimsonalucard 10y ago
  Then when you value an apple to be one billion trillion dollars did you increase the economy by one billion trillion dollars? No. That makes no sense. There is value and then there is intrinsic value aka True value. True value is extracted not created.
  - mhluongo 10y ago
    Ah. Here you'll find you're miles from most people's definition.
    - crimsonalucard 10y ago
      Nobody in the real world thinks value is subjective because if I subjectively valued an apple at two billion dollars everyone would think I'm crazy. Only people who blindly read economic textbooks will take that misguided definition at face value.
      - mhluongo 10y ago
        People who blindly read textbooks, as well as anyone with real world market experience. If you believe in economic value as an objective truth, and not based on the subjective view of a buyer or seller, we have no common ground to continue this discussion.
        crimsonalucard 10y ago
        We do have common ground. The common ground is exactly as you say: real world people with real market experience. But before I get into that real world example... you just threatened to end the discussion if I disagree with you. This is weak. I am telling you I can end this argument not on a mere disagreement... I can end this argument with factual, non-subjective evidence that will prove you wrong. Now, onto the real world example: Warren Buffet, arguably one of the most successful investors on the planet. Warren Buffet operates on a investment strategy known as investing on intrinsic value. In other words he believes that the market fluctuations of a stock price by the daily subjective valuations of day traders are meaningless, he peers beyond the noise and picks stocks based off of a very real economic concept called "intrinsic value" or a true value separate from the subjective valuations of people. Intrinsic value is a very real and actual concept. Warren Buffet believes it and many many other real world and experienced investors follow the strategy as well. See sources below: This link is solid proof intrinsic value exists as a theory in economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_theory_of_value This link shows intrinsic value applied in finance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance) This link shows intrinsic value applied as a stock investment strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_investing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_investing This is a biography on warren buffet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett Academia and "most people" are not unanimously sided with you. The above argument is solid proof. This is not a mere disagreement and if you end the discussion here it's an admission of total and utter loss.
        mhluongo 10y ago
        Quick thoughts: You didn't provide any "non-subjective evidence" - you just reframed what you think my position is to knock it down. I'm familiar with value investing. It's not clear to me why you believe the occasional success of value investors is proof in inherent value as a universal economic truth. I haven't claimed anything about value other than that it's subjective- that doesn't preclude, for example, a company's perceived value relying on a number of other subjective values. Anyway, again, I don't think we're getting anywhere here, and I think framing a discussion as requiring "admission of total and utter loss" to leave is childish and the hallmark of a troll. I'm equal parts embarrassed and impressed that I've been strung along this long.
MrFantastic 10y ago
A painter creates value when they add color to a blank canvas. Some colored canvases are worth millions of dollars.
- crimsonalucard 10y ago
  The value was not created. The value was extracted from supplies, skill and time required to paint it.