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> I suspect you can with some effort That is my point. You require effort in an order of magnitude greater than with PHP in order to achieve the same result, w

by Aldo_MX 10y ago

> I suspect you can with some effort That is my point. You require effort in an order of magnitude greater than with PHP in order to achieve the same result, which in the case of a beginner, is the difference between continuing their journey in programming or abandoning the ship. You are failing to see the big picture and are taking for granted the plethora of initial setup you have to do to begin working with a language like Rust (ex. generating bindings for a database driver written in C if it doesn't exist in cargo), you were just nitpicking in the syntax of the previous example (which BTW, I took care to clarify it was an example of bad code to avoid people not familiar with PHP from getting the wrong idea). It was my fault to say "you can't" in my previous message (see Atwood's Law), I really meant "it requires too much effort".

wyager 10y ago
When I say "with some effort" I mean "with a bit of initial effort to create a combinator library and zero effort after that". I'm not familiar enough with Rust to be confident of that though. It's certainly the case with Haskell.
babyrainbow 10y ago
>You require effort in an order of magnitude greater than with PHP in order to achieve the same result.. An order of magnitude? Really? I don't think so. Rust has a library (probably among others) called Horrorshow[1], that exports macros to do html templating. You claim that it is easy in Php to do html templating. But you miss the fact that it provide zero sanity/security checks while doing so. You need to sanitize every one of those variables before inserting into the html stream. You see, Php just trades off every bit of sanity and security for a little bit of ease of use. It is that simple. [1] https://stebalien.github.io/horrorshow-rs/horrorshow/ https://stebalien.github.io/horrorshow-rs/horrorshow/
- Aldo_MX 10y ago
  Yes, an order of magnitude, in PHP we're talking about _minutes_ in Rust we're talking about _hours_ or even _days_ for a beginner programmer, ever tried to install Homebrew in a Mac to name an example? It adds at least a few hours to the equation with its dependency on Xcode unless you already know to just install the command line tools. Remember that a beginner programmer doesn't always have a background in Computer Science, maybe it's a child, maybe a graphic designer, maybe an elder person or a housewife. Are you really expecting from a person foreign to CS to stop tinkering just because they can't write secure and performant code in your favorite language? Again, stop taking for granted the initial process setup and all the gotchas that you already know, stop nitpicking in the example of templating and see the big picture: A beginner programmer being able to get instant feedback with little effort in their browser of choice. No initial project or repository set-up, no install for external libraries, no huge development environments (like Xcode or Visual Studio), no build process or compilation, no command line, just an app like WAMP (on Windows) or MAMP (which people accustomed to homebrew avoid) and a browser pointing to http://localhost http://localhost. PHP is not a perfect language, but it's neither the abomination people like you describe, too many people judge PHP by its former state of the art and are unaware of the progress it has had in the last years, many of the most popular issues are already gone or at least are too difficult to trigger, to name an example, PHP stopped having register_globals since version 5.4, and PHP 7 added strict type hinting, which throws an error instead of doing unexpected type coercions. That doesn't mean that PHP is a better choice than properly-designed alternatives, just that it's less worse than before. I agree with the sentiment of using a well-designed language like Rust, but only when a project really requires that degree of security and performance (ex. writing a browser like Servo). A bakery website written by the kid of a patissier doesn't require that degree of security and performance... Or are you really going to demand that child to use your favorite language just because you despise PHP?
  - babyrainbow 10y ago
    So, you are saying Php is like LEGO and BASIC for web development. I have got no problem with that. Problem is that people using that in a professional setting and uses it to put stuff online. >A bakery website written by the kid of a patissier doesn't require that degree of security and performance... I don't think so. Everything that is put online need to be secure. One day it is just a bakery website. Next day it is accepting credit card numbers. And the kid who did this can get employed as a php developer based on this experience, and might build stuff like that for years, with out a clue in the world that they are using a toy language.

by Aldo_MX 10y ago

wyager 10y ago

When I say "with some effort" I mean "with a bit of initial effort to create a combinator library and zero effort after that". I'm not familiar enough with Rust to be confident of that though. It's certainly the case with Haskell.

babyrainbow 10y ago

>You require effort in an order of magnitude greater than with PHP in order to achieve the same result.. An order of magnitude? Really? I don't think so. Rust has a library (probably among others) called Horrorshow[1], that exports macros to do html templating. You claim that it is easy in Php to do html templating. But you miss the fact that it provide zero sanity/security checks while doing so. You need to sanitize every one of those variables before inserting into the html stream. You see, Php just trades off every bit of sanity and security for a little bit of ease of use. It is that simple. [1] https://stebalien.github.io/horrorshow-rs/horrorshow/ https://stebalien.github.io/horrorshow-rs/horrorshow/

Aldo_MX 10y ago
Yes, an order of magnitude, in PHP we're talking about _minutes_ in Rust we're talking about _hours_ or even _days_ for a beginner programmer, ever tried to install Homebrew in a Mac to name an example? It adds at least a few hours to the equation with its dependency on Xcode unless you already know to just install the command line tools. Remember that a beginner programmer doesn't always have a background in Computer Science, maybe it's a child, maybe a graphic designer, maybe an elder person or a housewife. Are you really expecting from a person foreign to CS to stop tinkering just because they can't write secure and performant code in your favorite language? Again, stop taking for granted the initial process setup and all the gotchas that you already know, stop nitpicking in the example of templating and see the big picture: A beginner programmer being able to get instant feedback with little effort in their browser of choice. No initial project or repository set-up, no install for external libraries, no huge development environments (like Xcode or Visual Studio), no build process or compilation, no command line, just an app like WAMP (on Windows) or MAMP (which people accustomed to homebrew avoid) and a browser pointing to http://localhost http://localhost. PHP is not a perfect language, but it's neither the abomination people like you describe, too many people judge PHP by its former state of the art and are unaware of the progress it has had in the last years, many of the most popular issues are already gone or at least are too difficult to trigger, to name an example, PHP stopped having register_globals since version 5.4, and PHP 7 added strict type hinting, which throws an error instead of doing unexpected type coercions. That doesn't mean that PHP is a better choice than properly-designed alternatives, just that it's less worse than before. I agree with the sentiment of using a well-designed language like Rust, but only when a project really requires that degree of security and performance (ex. writing a browser like Servo). A bakery website written by the kid of a patissier doesn't require that degree of security and performance... Or are you really going to demand that child to use your favorite language just because you despise PHP?
- babyrainbow 10y ago
  So, you are saying Php is like LEGO and BASIC for web development. I have got no problem with that. Problem is that people using that in a professional setting and uses it to put stuff online. >A bakery website written by the kid of a patissier doesn't require that degree of security and performance... I don't think so. Everything that is put online need to be secure. One day it is just a bakery website. Next day it is accepting credit card numbers. And the kid who did this can get employed as a php developer based on this experience, and might build stuff like that for years, with out a clue in the world that they are using a toy language.