5 ms·

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better. This is what's in play when you see a line out t

by dwc 10y ago

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better. This is what's in play when you see a line out the door at some shop. The prices may not be that much more expensive, but the quality is that much better.

dorfsmay 10y ago
I can imagine an expensive chef to setup processes that allows cheaper personnel to keep producing quality party. Slowly that process will suffer from time rot (eg: different floor that requires a diff cooking, but cheaper labour can't figure it out), also innovation will suffer. I see the exact same thing in dev envs, and even more so in ops/sysadmin. Cheaper unskilled labour going through old fashion processes without questioning and never trying to improve.
- IronIvan 10y ago
  I was really puzzled for a while, trying to figure out how a different floor could at all effect the cooking (and whether I would want to eat any food from a shop where it does) until I figured out that it was a typo and that it was supposed to spell floUr... :)
- specialist 10y ago
  "...that allows cheaper personnel to keep producing quality party. Slowly that process will suffer from time rot." I'm not so sure. I think its binary. I think there's always a touch, a qwan, assumed knowledge, skill & craft, or something that's not captured in the SOP. The master baker in the shop next door made the most delicious brioches. Left to start her own catering company. Whereas her trained replacements, using the same recipe, ingredients, and gear, just made adequate dinner rolls. I spent years perfecting my sunday morning pancakes. Big and fluffy. While best ingredients help, there's still a touch to make them just right. I can't even delegate flipping the pancakes to untrained family members. I've seen this with other trades too. You and me, we're too close to our work (tech) to fully understand the value add we bring to our work. But you miss it when it's gone. Maybe this is why the master / apprentice setup seems to work well for knowledge transfer.
  - dorfsmay 10y ago
    50, or 60% of the time, the food I prepare is really good (CMM 1) A good cook can repeatedly make a really good meal (CMM 2) but not necessarily being able to explain how and why. A Chef can setup processes and direct any cook to repeatedly prepare really good meal (CMM 4). A Master will improve existing recipes and invent new ones, will invent new processes to make better meal and make the kitchen work more efficiently etc... CMM 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model
  - HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
    Joel Spolsky spoke about this several years ago, using Jamie Oliver as an example. In a nutshell, as long as everything stays constant, the process can turn out excellent food. The problem is that unless you manage the living hell out of your supply chain, the inputs change all the time and it takes a lot of skil to compensate. Continuing with your pancake example: the way I make bread in summer is different than in winter. In summer, I expect the dough to rise faster. If it's a really humid or dry day, I'll do things differently. If the flour isn't the same as last time, I can compensate for that, etc... Process either requires tight feedback to work well, or all variables have to be minimized.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Do you make Sourdough? If yes, I've had success rising it in the fridge - takes longer (1.5-2 days) but conditions in their tend to be fairly constant. As a bonus, you get a ton of oven rise.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
        I used to have a starter but not now. Never tried a fridge rise, but it does sound like the consistent conditions would make for a consistent rise. I'll have to try that!
skybrian 10y ago
That might be true for a shop, but fancy restaurants have limited upside. If they're filling the seats, more demand doesn't matter that much - it just makes it harder to get a reservation. So above a reasonable level of quality, profit margin will matter more to the business.
- wtvanhest 10y ago
  This analogy also applies to software development. The bigger the company, the harder it is to justify a high priced incremental software hire.
- varjag 10y ago
  They can raise the prices until the backlog of reservations is still respectable but not hopeless. That's in fact what many of them do.
csallen 10y ago
Many other factors help drive demand, e.g. social proof, marketing and branding, newness, location, PR, etc. There are diminishing returns to food quality.
bryanrasmussen 10y ago
right, a higher quality pastry chef produces higher quality pastry and as a consequence of that the higher quality pastry chef should also be the more expensive pastry chef.

by dwc 10y ago

dorfsmay 10y ago

I can imagine an expensive chef to setup processes that allows cheaper personnel to keep producing quality party. Slowly that process will suffer from time rot (eg: different floor that requires a diff cooking, but cheaper labour can't figure it out), also innovation will suffer. I see the exact same thing in dev envs, and even more so in ops/sysadmin. Cheaper unskilled labour going through old fashion processes without questioning and never trying to improve.

IronIvan 10y ago
I was really puzzled for a while, trying to figure out how a different floor could at all effect the cooking (and whether I would want to eat any food from a shop where it does) until I figured out that it was a typo and that it was supposed to spell floUr... :)
specialist 10y ago
"...that allows cheaper personnel to keep producing quality party. Slowly that process will suffer from time rot." I'm not so sure. I think its binary. I think there's always a touch, a qwan, assumed knowledge, skill & craft, or something that's not captured in the SOP. The master baker in the shop next door made the most delicious brioches. Left to start her own catering company. Whereas her trained replacements, using the same recipe, ingredients, and gear, just made adequate dinner rolls. I spent years perfecting my sunday morning pancakes. Big and fluffy. While best ingredients help, there's still a touch to make them just right. I can't even delegate flipping the pancakes to untrained family members. I've seen this with other trades too. You and me, we're too close to our work (tech) to fully understand the value add we bring to our work. But you miss it when it's gone. Maybe this is why the master / apprentice setup seems to work well for knowledge transfer.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  50, or 60% of the time, the food I prepare is really good (CMM 1) A good cook can repeatedly make a really good meal (CMM 2) but not necessarily being able to explain how and why. A Chef can setup processes and direct any cook to repeatedly prepare really good meal (CMM 4). A Master will improve existing recipes and invent new ones, will invent new processes to make better meal and make the kitchen work more efficiently etc... CMM 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model
- HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
  Joel Spolsky spoke about this several years ago, using Jamie Oliver as an example. In a nutshell, as long as everything stays constant, the process can turn out excellent food. The problem is that unless you manage the living hell out of your supply chain, the inputs change all the time and it takes a lot of skil to compensate. Continuing with your pancake example: the way I make bread in summer is different than in winter. In summer, I expect the dough to rise faster. If it's a really humid or dry day, I'll do things differently. If the flour isn't the same as last time, I can compensate for that, etc... Process either requires tight feedback to work well, or all variables have to be minimized.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Do you make Sourdough? If yes, I've had success rising it in the fridge - takes longer (1.5-2 days) but conditions in their tend to be fairly constant. As a bonus, you get a ton of oven rise.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
      I used to have a starter but not now. Never tried a fridge rise, but it does sound like the consistent conditions would make for a consistent rise. I'll have to try that!

skybrian 10y ago

That might be true for a shop, but fancy restaurants have limited upside. If they're filling the seats, more demand doesn't matter that much - it just makes it harder to get a reservation. So above a reasonable level of quality, profit margin will matter more to the business.

wtvanhest 10y ago
This analogy also applies to software development. The bigger the company, the harder it is to justify a high priced incremental software hire.
varjag 10y ago
They can raise the prices until the backlog of reservations is still respectable but not hopeless. That's in fact what many of them do.

csallen 10y ago

Many other factors help drive demand, e.g. social proof, marketing and branding, newness, location, PR, etc. There are diminishing returns to food quality.

bryanrasmussen 10y ago

right, a higher quality pastry chef produces higher quality pastry and as a consequence of that the higher quality pastry chef should also be the more expensive pastry chef.