8 ms·

Doubt cast on Dash developer's defense against Apple's claim of review fraud

60 points by anthonybsd 10y ago

ars 10y ago
Every time. Every time I read some post by someone about how they were treated unfairly by some company or another, upon further inspection they are not telling the whole truth. (Usually not outright lies, just not the complete story.) Every time. Oh well. I like myself better when I believe people, so I'll continue to do that anyway despite logic saying not to.
- rizzom5000 10y ago
  I was thinking something similar when the story originally came out. There simply wasn't any evidence of any wrongdoing by anyone, but the mob was ready to pull out the pitchforks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12646919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12646919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131
  - mitchty 10y ago
    It fits a certain narrative that certain groups want to promote about apple. The story just became a vehicle to vent about preexisting gripes about them. Note how you see statements like walled garden etc, when this can also be couched as removing developers that game the system.
- kbenson 10y ago
  I don't know. I still think those crazy Verizon cancellation/customer support calls that were circulating a few years ago probably weren't hiding too much.
- fizzbatter 10y ago
  > I like myself better when I believe people, so I'll continue to do that anyway despite logic saying not to. Well put. For what it's worth though, i tend to view cases like this with skepticism. I mainly think of it as, why believe PersonA over PersonB - it's a technical decision at that point, not a personal judgement. It's a little more difficult when it's John Doe vs Apple, ie a human vs a corporation, but ultimately i still don't picking sides without hard evidence. He said she saids rarely add up, regardless of guilt.
- blub 10y ago
  So basically you seem to judge situations poorly, but seem to insinuate that customer complaints are often not justified. That may be, and that's why it's a good idea to wait for proof. People saying "I told you so" or "Every time" are missing the point and not helping.
- nbm 10y ago
  There's a weird power imbalance in these situations. The person reporting the problem is able to tell whatever story they want since they generally don't have a reputation to maintain (and will, if anything, likely improve their reputation), and the company has to be very careful - it's often better to not release any detail to avoid potentially worse fallout from releasing potentially private information (yes, the privacy of the person making the complaint). This is especially bad when your company is on the receiving end, and you know the truth. For example, a previous company had someone making claims that some purchase was made on their credit card without their knowledge - but there was account email confirmation at account creation time, account email conversation with community support, actual logical proof from the post itself of something that required said purchase, and so forth. In another case, an account is closed due to some clearly provable illegal behaviour, but it was blamed on not paying to renewing something optional. So since then I'm perfectly capable of neither believing nor disbelieving claims made by people, even when it happens to agree with what I was thinking already. It doesn't make me feel better or worse than believing them, I just assume I don't have the information necessary to make any real judgement about it. Life lesson, I guess, and useful to not get sucked into things like political theatre.
homero 10y ago
Apple gives him an out yet he records them in defiance https://newyork.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a https://newyork.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a
- tvmalsv 10y ago
  I half agree. They are definitely giving him an out, but I don't consider his recording the call as defiance, more like just being practical. I'd record the call, too.
  - ascagnel_ 10y ago
    I'd record the call for potential legal action -- if he was telling the truth the entire time, then he would likely have a reasonable court case for losing some income because of Apple's action. Releasing the edited call recording (it's clear that at least the beginning and ending of the call have been removed) outside of litigation is going nuclear.
falcolas 10y ago
No matter how skeezy the Dash developer is starting to look, I still I personally despise the reinstatement of the developer's account depending upon the developer posting a comment vindicating Apple on their blog. It seems childish, like Apple feels the need to show "who's the bitch" by making the developer bow to their desires.
- Camillo 10y ago
  There has to be some deterrent.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    This isn't a deterrent, this is a PR nightmare. Apple fans are forced to dig up dirt on a developer to show how Apple is in the right, the developer is still raising very public hell about the whole situation, and consumers of Dash are stuck without access to a tool they need.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- anthonybsd 10y ago
  It's not about "who's the bitch", it's about rectifying a dangerous PR situation for the company which was entirely this developer's doing.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Apple's demands have turned this into a dangerous PR situation. If Apple had simply reinstated the account with the brief explanation they've already given and without this silly demand, we would have all forgotten about it by now. Developer (caught up in a mistaken fraud check|screwed up and purchased reviews) and his account was shut down; reinstated as a gesture of good will by Apple after explaining what happened. Developers in general are happy because Apple appears responsive to problems with fraud checks, original developer is properly chastized and can move on with life. Contrast that with "Developer is still raising very public hell about their account being disabled; Apple fans digging up dirt on developer."
callahad 10y ago
Eh, I'm still siding with Bogdan. At 3:10 in the recording at https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story, Apple explicitly states that they never attempted to contact him via the account that published Dash. If Apple is going to pull the plug on all of the linked accounts, they have a duty to at least inform all of the linked accounts.
- IBM 10y ago
  The only reason to inform both accounts is if you believe the developer's story about his relative using the account (which is a "my dog ate the homework" excuse) and that Apple needs to explore every possible edge case scenario that could explain the innocence of the developer. The credit card, the bank account, and the devices were all the same. That's more than enough for Apple to reasonably believe that the accounts belong to the same person and to shut him down.
  - callahad 10y ago
    The reason to inform both accounts is that you're about to shut down both accounts, and it's always possible that you've made a mistake. I'm asking them to send two emails instead of one, not hire a private eye.
  - Twisell 10y ago
    Beside if the new elements are accurate it seems that the alleged "side-account" was actually the first he registered before creating the other one specifically for dash... I agree that it's on everybody best interest that Apple in the futur shall contact all accounts potentially impacted by a ban. But according to new elements the way out by re-enrolment proposed by apple on phone was pretty kind.
Grue3 10y ago
This is a downright character assassination attempt. The way apple is treating this developer is pathetic.
- anthonybsd 10y ago
  Did you even bother reading the story? Here's a summary: http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-says-1-000-fraudulent-reviews-were-detected-across-two-accounts-owned-by-dash-developer-update-developer-responds.2005850/page-12#post-23708918 http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-says-1-000-fraudul...
  - Grue3 10y ago
    Yeah, I'll take macrumors' word for it. Seems like a totally impartial source.
- fearoffish 10y ago
  If you listen to the audio recording, it couldn't be more fair. His account was linked (same bank account and same test devices) to an account that was fraudulent. All he has to do is write a blog post that says that, not that he did anything wrong...but the facts. Simple. No character assassination, no accusations, just the truth.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Why is it up to him to write that blog post? What makes his word more credible than Apple's?
    - jonny_eh 10y ago
      Because Apple's position has been the same all along, that they detected fraudulent activity on his accounts. They just want him to confirm, publicly, that there was indeed fishy stuff going on with one of his accounts. Seems totally fair.

60 points by anthonybsd 10y ago

ars 10y ago

Every time. Every time I read some post by someone about how they were treated unfairly by some company or another, upon further inspection they are not telling the whole truth. (Usually not outright lies, just not the complete story.) Every time. Oh well. I like myself better when I believe people, so I'll continue to do that anyway despite logic saying not to.

rizzom5000 10y ago
I was thinking something similar when the story originally came out. There simply wasn't any evidence of any wrongdoing by anyone, but the mob was ready to pull out the pitchforks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12646919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12646919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131
- mitchty 10y ago
  It fits a certain narrative that certain groups want to promote about apple. The story just became a vehicle to vent about preexisting gripes about them. Note how you see statements like walled garden etc, when this can also be couched as removing developers that game the system.
kbenson 10y ago
I don't know. I still think those crazy Verizon cancellation/customer support calls that were circulating a few years ago probably weren't hiding too much.
fizzbatter 10y ago
> I like myself better when I believe people, so I'll continue to do that anyway despite logic saying not to. Well put. For what it's worth though, i tend to view cases like this with skepticism. I mainly think of it as, why believe PersonA over PersonB - it's a technical decision at that point, not a personal judgement. It's a little more difficult when it's John Doe vs Apple, ie a human vs a corporation, but ultimately i still don't picking sides without hard evidence. He said she saids rarely add up, regardless of guilt.
blub 10y ago
So basically you seem to judge situations poorly, but seem to insinuate that customer complaints are often not justified. That may be, and that's why it's a good idea to wait for proof. People saying "I told you so" or "Every time" are missing the point and not helping.
nbm 10y ago
There's a weird power imbalance in these situations. The person reporting the problem is able to tell whatever story they want since they generally don't have a reputation to maintain (and will, if anything, likely improve their reputation), and the company has to be very careful - it's often better to not release any detail to avoid potentially worse fallout from releasing potentially private information (yes, the privacy of the person making the complaint). This is especially bad when your company is on the receiving end, and you know the truth. For example, a previous company had someone making claims that some purchase was made on their credit card without their knowledge - but there was account email confirmation at account creation time, account email conversation with community support, actual logical proof from the post itself of something that required said purchase, and so forth. In another case, an account is closed due to some clearly provable illegal behaviour, but it was blamed on not paying to renewing something optional. So since then I'm perfectly capable of neither believing nor disbelieving claims made by people, even when it happens to agree with what I was thinking already. It doesn't make me feel better or worse than believing them, I just assume I don't have the information necessary to make any real judgement about it. Life lesson, I guess, and useful to not get sucked into things like political theatre.

homero 10y ago

Apple gives him an out yet he records them in defiance https://newyork.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a https://newyork.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a

tvmalsv 10y ago
I half agree. They are definitely giving him an out, but I don't consider his recording the call as defiance, more like just being practical. I'd record the call, too.
- ascagnel_ 10y ago
  I'd record the call for potential legal action -- if he was telling the truth the entire time, then he would likely have a reasonable court case for losing some income because of Apple's action. Releasing the edited call recording (it's clear that at least the beginning and ending of the call have been removed) outside of litigation is going nuclear.

falcolas 10y ago

No matter how skeezy the Dash developer is starting to look, I still I personally despise the reinstatement of the developer's account depending upon the developer posting a comment vindicating Apple on their blog. It seems childish, like Apple feels the need to show "who's the bitch" by making the developer bow to their desires.

Camillo 10y ago
There has to be some deterrent.
- falcolas 10y ago
  This isn't a deterrent, this is a PR nightmare. Apple fans are forced to dig up dirt on a developer to show how Apple is in the right, the developer is still raising very public hell about the whole situation, and consumers of Dash are stuck without access to a tool they need.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
anthonybsd 10y ago
It's not about "who's the bitch", it's about rectifying a dangerous PR situation for the company which was entirely this developer's doing.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Apple's demands have turned this into a dangerous PR situation. If Apple had simply reinstated the account with the brief explanation they've already given and without this silly demand, we would have all forgotten about it by now. Developer (caught up in a mistaken fraud check|screwed up and purchased reviews) and his account was shut down; reinstated as a gesture of good will by Apple after explaining what happened. Developers in general are happy because Apple appears responsive to problems with fraud checks, original developer is properly chastized and can move on with life. Contrast that with "Developer is still raising very public hell about their account being disabled; Apple fans digging up dirt on developer."

callahad 10y ago

Eh, I'm still siding with Bogdan. At 3:10 in the recording at https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story, Apple explicitly states that they never attempted to contact him via the account that published Dash. If Apple is going to pull the plug on all of the linked accounts, they have a duty to at least inform all of the linked accounts.

IBM 10y ago
The only reason to inform both accounts is if you believe the developer's story about his relative using the account (which is a "my dog ate the homework" excuse) and that Apple needs to explore every possible edge case scenario that could explain the innocence of the developer. The credit card, the bank account, and the devices were all the same. That's more than enough for Apple to reasonably believe that the accounts belong to the same person and to shut him down.
- callahad 10y ago
  The reason to inform both accounts is that you're about to shut down both accounts, and it's always possible that you've made a mistake. I'm asking them to send two emails instead of one, not hire a private eye.
- Twisell 10y ago
  Beside if the new elements are accurate it seems that the alleged "side-account" was actually the first he registered before creating the other one specifically for dash... I agree that it's on everybody best interest that Apple in the futur shall contact all accounts potentially impacted by a ban. But according to new elements the way out by re-enrolment proposed by apple on phone was pretty kind.

Grue3 10y ago

This is a downright character assassination attempt. The way apple is treating this developer is pathetic.

anthonybsd 10y ago
Did you even bother reading the story? Here's a summary: http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-says-1-000-fraudulent-reviews-were-detected-across-two-accounts-owned-by-dash-developer-update-developer-responds.2005850/page-12#post-23708918 http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-says-1-000-fraudul...
- Grue3 10y ago
  Yeah, I'll take macrumors' word for it. Seems like a totally impartial source.
fearoffish 10y ago
If you listen to the audio recording, it couldn't be more fair. His account was linked (same bank account and same test devices) to an account that was fraudulent. All he has to do is write a blog post that says that, not that he did anything wrong...but the facts. Simple. No character assassination, no accusations, just the truth.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Why is it up to him to write that blog post? What makes his word more credible than Apple's?
  - jonny_eh 10y ago
    Because Apple's position has been the same all along, that they detected fraudulent activity on his accounts. They just want him to confirm, publicly, that there was indeed fishy stuff going on with one of his accounts. Seems totally fair.