5 ms·

I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition. If you look in both blues/folk there are a lot of songs that are very similar, with almost interchange

by dev360 10y ago

I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition. If you look in both blues/folk there are a lot of songs that are very similar, with almost interchangeable lyrics by many different artists. The song Little Sadie is one example - its been known under a variety of names, with variations of lyrics. All the John Henry songs - they have been sung by blues and country players alike for almost a century.

hackuser 10y ago
> I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition. He says he's part of that tradition, and at length talks about how he benefited from it. Does he give back?
- dev360 10y ago
  Yes, he goes into length explaining how he created his own versions of Ballad of John Henry and "Key to the highway". You are missing the point. "Hey Joe" is thought to be inspired by Little Sadie. Its not about ripping off, its about telling the same story in a different way - story telling.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    Based on what I know about folk music - at one time I listened to a bunch of it and learned about its traditions, but I'm hardly an expert - that's not true. By that tradition, folk songs are for everyone to play and sing, not only for a professional to perform for you. There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; it's not about profit, and intellectual property is almost an opposed concept. To a degree, it's like free/libre software and makers. IIRC, folk music legend Woody Guthrie kept his songs simple so that anyone could play them. And a more recent folk singer printed (maybe still prints) on all her recordings, where the copyright info usually appears, Unauthorized reproduction, while sometimes necessary, is never as good as the real thing.
    - dev360 10y ago
      >> There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; Yes, I agree. I guess I dont see the conflict. If you play any of these songs, change a few verses, some melody and some chords, then you can claim the copyright just like Bob Dylan did. That is what I think he is trying to get at in that speech. Notice how is says the following in his copyright claim: "Basis of Claim: New Matter: rev. melody & new music." [1] There are many artists that have copyright claims for the same essential song title. Search for Walking Blues, John Hardy or any old fiddle tune like Shady Grove, Blackberry blossom, man of constant sorrow etc. There are a ton of these songs out there where anybody can make their own mark and claim the copyright because literally everybody does it. Try doing that with 'Times are a changin' and I can guarantee you its not the same unspoken code because its not one of those tunes that have been passed down by generations of musicians and told and retold. The bar will likely be much higher for you to claim your artistic expression on that copyright. That was the point I was trying to make here. I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing. [1] http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14&Search_Arg=little%20sadie&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=ATMeBqpwcxAzm2KN9xsIHYKNVOZE&SEQ=20161014093607&SID=9 http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14...
      - hackuser 10y ago
        Thanks for your thoughtful response > I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing. I understand your point and I agree that's the reality of it, but I'm saying that isn't how it has to be. It isn't the same thing in some qualitative ways, as you say, but mainly because Dylan chooses to make it different. Like all the FOSS developers, all those Grateful Dead bootlegs, and all those traditional folk tunes, and some folk singers (and other musicians) in the recorded era, he could have made his libre. My guess is that like Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, and many others, he wouldn't be homeless, that is unless he prefers to keep traveling.
        dev360 10y ago
- unethical_ban 10y ago
  It's not a debate about giving music rights out. If someone makes a song that sounds a lot like a Dylan song, it would be telling how he would react. He's taking about musical evolution, not free streaming.

by dev360 10y ago

hackuser 10y ago

> I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition. He says he's part of that tradition, and at length talks about how he benefited from it. Does he give back?

dev360 10y ago
Yes, he goes into length explaining how he created his own versions of Ballad of John Henry and "Key to the highway". You are missing the point. "Hey Joe" is thought to be inspired by Little Sadie. Its not about ripping off, its about telling the same story in a different way - story telling.
- hackuser 10y ago
  Based on what I know about folk music - at one time I listened to a bunch of it and learned about its traditions, but I'm hardly an expert - that's not true. By that tradition, folk songs are for everyone to play and sing, not only for a professional to perform for you. There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; it's not about profit, and intellectual property is almost an opposed concept. To a degree, it's like free/libre software and makers. IIRC, folk music legend Woody Guthrie kept his songs simple so that anyone could play them. And a more recent folk singer printed (maybe still prints) on all her recordings, where the copyright info usually appears, Unauthorized reproduction, while sometimes necessary, is never as good as the real thing.
  - dev360 10y ago
    >> There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; Yes, I agree. I guess I dont see the conflict. If you play any of these songs, change a few verses, some melody and some chords, then you can claim the copyright just like Bob Dylan did. That is what I think he is trying to get at in that speech. Notice how is says the following in his copyright claim: "Basis of Claim: New Matter: rev. melody & new music." [1] There are many artists that have copyright claims for the same essential song title. Search for Walking Blues, John Hardy or any old fiddle tune like Shady Grove, Blackberry blossom, man of constant sorrow etc. There are a ton of these songs out there where anybody can make their own mark and claim the copyright because literally everybody does it. Try doing that with 'Times are a changin' and I can guarantee you its not the same unspoken code because its not one of those tunes that have been passed down by generations of musicians and told and retold. The bar will likely be much higher for you to claim your artistic expression on that copyright. That was the point I was trying to make here. I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing. [1] http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14&Search_Arg=little%20sadie&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=ATMeBqpwcxAzm2KN9xsIHYKNVOZE&SEQ=20161014093607&SID=9 http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14...
    - hackuser 10y ago
      Thanks for your thoughtful response > I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing. I understand your point and I agree that's the reality of it, but I'm saying that isn't how it has to be. It isn't the same thing in some qualitative ways, as you say, but mainly because Dylan chooses to make it different. Like all the FOSS developers, all those Grateful Dead bootlegs, and all those traditional folk tunes, and some folk singers (and other musicians) in the recorded era, he could have made his libre. My guess is that like Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, and many others, he wouldn't be homeless, that is unless he prefers to keep traveling.
      - dev360 10y ago
unethical_ban 10y ago
It's not a debate about giving music rights out. If someone makes a song that sounds a lot like a Dylan song, it would be telling how he would react. He's taking about musical evolution, not free streaming.