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This is the standard apologia for rudeness. The problem is that people don't work like that. If you say something in an aggressive manner, they will tend to ass

This is the standard apologia for rudeness. The problem is that people don't work like that. If you say something in an aggressive manner, they will tend to assume a confrontational posture and won't work with you. It's just how people are wired. Consider two possible responses I could have to your comment: (a) You're full of shit. (b) In my experience, that's not actually true. Chances are you're going to respond better to (b) than to (a). So, if I actually want to engage you in conversation, or work with you in the future, I should say (b). Routine courtesy is part of the standard toolkit of effective communication skills. It may be cathartic to be rude to someone, but it doesn't lead to long-term progress. > Calling out someone as stupid for saying stupid things seems to me to be the best defence... ...or you could simply explain why you think they're mistaken, without using personal insults, and so win them over to your side of the debate? As it is, you're not just driving them away, but you're also sending a message to everybody else reading the conversation that you're intolerant and difficult to work with, which is not going to help the project. I actually remember that particular conversation, as that was the point when I gave up on OpenBSD, unsubscribed from -misc, and switched to Debian Linux (and never went back). It simply wasn't worth my time to wade through the insults and abuse to get things done any more. Of course, in those days, Theo de Raadt had the reputation for being an angry jerk, and Linux Torvalds had a reputation for being moderate and easy to work with. How times have changed.

4ad 10y ago
> You're full of shit. If you said that, I would have respected you, even though we disagreed. > In my experience, that's not actually true. Now I know you're just PC police, and that I have nothing to gain by further engaging with you. I have no respect for you. So no, you are wrong. People don't work like that. Or at least people worth talking to are not like that. People see through all the PC bullshit, and respond accordingly. > It simply wasn't worth my time to wade through the insults and abuse to get things done any more. Yeah, this kind of PC attitude it's not worth my time. People who can't, just discuss PC politics, while people who can, just do, and don't care about any of this stuff.
- 4ad 10y ago
  To add to that, please note one thing though. Here we are in a public space, if you (some generic you, not you david-given in particular) say or do what I consider to be a stupid thing, I will just ignore you. I will certainly not insult you. Why would I? I have better things to do. But if you come into my house and start spitting on the floor, don't get too surprised if I punch you in the face and throw you out. Perhaps I might even insult you. You're in my house, I won't tolerate this kind of behavior. You are forcing me to act just because you are in my house. Theo and Linus don't come in public spaces (like HN) to start insulting people. They might insult people when they come to the OpenBSD/Linux space and start spitting on the floor. To further the analogy, unannounced people come and spit on the floor. This is a very deep and fundamental difference. And just because everyone can see and participate in the discussion, make no mistake, it's still an OpenBSD or Linux space. Not some generic fantasy land. I might hold a party and my house where everyone can come, but if you come and don't behave, I will take measures and you can whine all you want about my non PC behavior.
- jerf 10y ago
  "Now I know you're just PC police, and that I have nothing to gain by further engaging with you." That's not PC police. This is How To Win Friends And Influence People stuff, not PC stuff. You are free to be rude, but you'll pay the consequences, quite needlessly. I'm in a position where I with some frequency have to contradict people (being a code reviewer for a significant internal shared library has that result), but I try to make it clear in my words and tone that it's in the spirit of working with them and obtaining the best solution. I'm pretty sure it's not 100% successful, because some people to some extent can't process being contradicted in any way as anything less than hostility (and I put both "somes" in that sentence on purpose), no matter how polite you are about it, and on my side, I'm absolutely sure I'm not perfect about it, but I am sure I'm better off than I would be if I was always being as blunt as possible without even trying.
geocar 10y ago
> If you say something in an aggressive manner, they will tend to assume a confrontational posture and won't work with you. In my experience, that's not actually true. Hitler, famously, was able to say many things in a very aggressive manner, people did assume a confrontational posture, and did work with him. When I see Theo write, I see someone who is passionate and who will not compromise. Yes, he does things I don't agree with, but notwithstanding the comparison to Hitler, he also does things that I do agree with. The reason we respond the way we do isn't always because of the person we're responding to. People respond to passion in different ways, some people shut down, some people walk away, and some people feel it's so important to find some other way to prove them wrong that they'll try to turn the conversation into one about rudeness instead.

4ad 10y ago

> You're full of shit. If you said that, I would have respected you, even though we disagreed. > In my experience, that's not actually true. Now I know you're just PC police, and that I have nothing to gain by further engaging with you. I have no respect for you. So no, you are wrong. People don't work like that. Or at least people worth talking to are not like that. People see through all the PC bullshit, and respond accordingly. > It simply wasn't worth my time to wade through the insults and abuse to get things done any more. Yeah, this kind of PC attitude it's not worth my time. People who can't, just discuss PC politics, while people who can, just do, and don't care about any of this stuff.

4ad 10y ago
To add to that, please note one thing though. Here we are in a public space, if you (some generic you, not you david-given in particular) say or do what I consider to be a stupid thing, I will just ignore you. I will certainly not insult you. Why would I? I have better things to do. But if you come into my house and start spitting on the floor, don't get too surprised if I punch you in the face and throw you out. Perhaps I might even insult you. You're in my house, I won't tolerate this kind of behavior. You are forcing me to act just because you are in my house. Theo and Linus don't come in public spaces (like HN) to start insulting people. They might insult people when they come to the OpenBSD/Linux space and start spitting on the floor. To further the analogy, unannounced people come and spit on the floor. This is a very deep and fundamental difference. And just because everyone can see and participate in the discussion, make no mistake, it's still an OpenBSD or Linux space. Not some generic fantasy land. I might hold a party and my house where everyone can come, but if you come and don't behave, I will take measures and you can whine all you want about my non PC behavior.
jerf 10y ago
"Now I know you're just PC police, and that I have nothing to gain by further engaging with you." That's not PC police. This is How To Win Friends And Influence People stuff, not PC stuff. You are free to be rude, but you'll pay the consequences, quite needlessly. I'm in a position where I with some frequency have to contradict people (being a code reviewer for a significant internal shared library has that result), but I try to make it clear in my words and tone that it's in the spirit of working with them and obtaining the best solution. I'm pretty sure it's not 100% successful, because some people to some extent can't process being contradicted in any way as anything less than hostility (and I put both "somes" in that sentence on purpose), no matter how polite you are about it, and on my side, I'm absolutely sure I'm not perfect about it, but I am sure I'm better off than I would be if I was always being as blunt as possible without even trying.

geocar 10y ago

> If you say something in an aggressive manner, they will tend to assume a confrontational posture and won't work with you. In my experience, that's not actually true. Hitler, famously, was able to say many things in a very aggressive manner, people did assume a confrontational posture, and did work with him. When I see Theo write, I see someone who is passionate and who will not compromise. Yes, he does things I don't agree with, but notwithstanding the comparison to Hitler, he also does things that I do agree with. The reason we respond the way we do isn't always because of the person we're responding to. People respond to passion in different ways, some people shut down, some people walk away, and some people feel it's so important to find some other way to prove them wrong that they'll try to turn the conversation into one about rudeness instead.