7 ms·

> JOI ITO: This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building

by V-2 10y ago

> JOI ITO: This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they’re more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-fiction, generalized AI, we wouldn’t have to worry about all the messy stuff like politics and society. They think machines will just figure it all out for us. Why is that a problem that they're mostly white? The interviewer doesn't bother to elaborate, it's sort of mentioned in passing as if it were something obvious. To me (a non-American here, mind you) it isn't. Would the difficulties they mention be alleviated if that wasn't the case? Why? Couldn't - say - an Asian student fall into a misconception that machines will come up with answers to all questions? Is it less likely? What substantiates such a claim?

macns 10y ago
They were both[Obama, Ito] focusing on AI's social effects and to how societal values can be built into AI. So Ito's concern was probably that a group of people of similar characteristics(i.e white male geeks) is not diverse enough to address the world's social problems, especially when this group of people is not social enough; they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. This fits with what he says in the end Because the question is, how do we build societal values into AI? - he's more concerned about the builders themselves.
- V-2 10y ago
  I do understand that as far as the social aspect goes, still I think that a white computer geek has much more in common with an Asian or black computer geek than with - say - an average white truck driver, and obviously the same applies to the other geeks as well. Basically once we control for the cultural aspect (which is correlated with ethnicity, but we controlled this out already), I don't think ethnicity by itself should matter much
  - flopto 10y ago
    In the U.S., a black software engineer is more likely to be able to design technology that helps keep people safe from police regardless of geekery and socioeconomic status.
    - V-2 10y ago
      Do you have anything to back it up, or is it a supposition?
      - flopto 10y ago
        Just a supposition, but from an American (I'm white). I don't think it's a stretch to say that people who have experienced e.g. anti-black racism will be better able to make technology that addresses it.
        V-2 10y ago
        Willing? Or able? You're saying it makes a difference in the ability itself. In either case this argument - well, it's not even much of an argument, merely a belief - is so absurd to me that frankly I can't believe you're serious, no offence. Care to share any examples of what technologies is, in turn, a white software engineer more likely to be able to design? Or does this philosophy only work one way : ) Is designing medical software better left to be implemented by software engineers who themselves eg. battled cancer?
        flopto 10y ago
        1. Able. Not that skin color itself affects any sort of intellectual ability, but race--including, importantly, the experiences people have because of their skin color--definitely impacts who you are and what you are good at. 2. White software engineers are better at designing racist software (mostly joking). Another half joke: white people are better at designing technology that gets taken seriously by the government and the public (i.e. their technology will be taken more seriously because they are white, not any special ability there). But seriously, white engineers would probably be better at designing technology for teaching other white people about race. 3. Yes, there are absolutely some parts of designing medical software that engineers who have battled cancer would be better at. Imagine you are making one of those medical devices that sits next to a cancer patient's bed post-chemo and shows a bunch of numbers. Now if you fought cancer, you've probably had lots of experience lying in that bed next to those screens, and you could have a much better intuition about how those screens should look and how they should present their visualizations in ways that make a patient more confident. Or imagine the software engineer wants to, you know, talk with some patients or doctors to understand what to make: the engineer who battled cancer will probably be much better understanding what the patients (and doctors) want.
Red_Tarsius 10y ago
I'm trying to stop reading news from US/UK sources. The depth of political discourse only goes as far as your self-appointed identity. Actions don't matter anymore. White people are guilty of colonialism much like Catholic children inherit the Original Sin, that is, it's a means of control by anti-intellectuals. I wouldn't support Trump, but the American Left is especially dangerous because it relies on gender / racial divide to get the most votes. In some twisted sense, the problem is not supposed to be solved. Skin color does not make Obama an expert in race relations. If he had said "...but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly black, who are building the core computer science around AI..." there would have been riots in the streets. Tim Hunt's joke was taken out of context and almost ruined his career. EDIT: To be clear, his white remark was fully intentional.
- bcook 10y ago
  Can you share a link to the Dawkins' out-of-context joke?
  - Red_Tarsius 10y ago
    I wrote the comment in a hurry, I meant Tim Hunt. Sorry, I'm going to fix the original post. On 8 June 2015, during the 2015 World Conference of Science Journalists in Seoul, at a lunch for female journalists and scientists, Hunt was asked on short notice to give a toast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt). He made a self-deprecating comment and media vultures run with it. He was shamed out of the Royal Society and UCL.
- cheriot 10y ago
  > Skin color does not make Obama an expert in race relations. Nor does your observation mean he's NOT an expert in race relations. You're making the same mistake as the people you criticize in applying generalities to specific cases.
  - Red_Tarsius 10y ago
    We are biased to believe that minority groups are more fit to solve racial issues. But skin color is a not a sufficient condition for race relations expertise. Obama is not strictly right/wrong due to his identity. There is no other meaning to my previous post.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by V-2 10y ago

macns 10y ago

They were both[Obama, Ito] focusing on AI's social effects and to how societal values can be built into AI. So Ito's concern was probably that a group of people of similar characteristics(i.e white male geeks) is not diverse enough to address the world's social problems, especially when this group of people is not social enough; they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. This fits with what he says in the end Because the question is, how do we build societal values into AI? - he's more concerned about the builders themselves.

V-2 10y ago
I do understand that as far as the social aspect goes, still I think that a white computer geek has much more in common with an Asian or black computer geek than with - say - an average white truck driver, and obviously the same applies to the other geeks as well. Basically once we control for the cultural aspect (which is correlated with ethnicity, but we controlled this out already), I don't think ethnicity by itself should matter much
- flopto 10y ago
  In the U.S., a black software engineer is more likely to be able to design technology that helps keep people safe from police regardless of geekery and socioeconomic status.
  - V-2 10y ago
    Do you have anything to back it up, or is it a supposition?
    - flopto 10y ago
      Just a supposition, but from an American (I'm white). I don't think it's a stretch to say that people who have experienced e.g. anti-black racism will be better able to make technology that addresses it.
      - V-2 10y ago
        Willing? Or able? You're saying it makes a difference in the ability itself. In either case this argument - well, it's not even much of an argument, merely a belief - is so absurd to me that frankly I can't believe you're serious, no offence. Care to share any examples of what technologies is, in turn, a white software engineer more likely to be able to design? Or does this philosophy only work one way : ) Is designing medical software better left to be implemented by software engineers who themselves eg. battled cancer?
        flopto 10y ago
        1. Able. Not that skin color itself affects any sort of intellectual ability, but race--including, importantly, the experiences people have because of their skin color--definitely impacts who you are and what you are good at. 2. White software engineers are better at designing racist software (mostly joking). Another half joke: white people are better at designing technology that gets taken seriously by the government and the public (i.e. their technology will be taken more seriously because they are white, not any special ability there). But seriously, white engineers would probably be better at designing technology for teaching other white people about race. 3. Yes, there are absolutely some parts of designing medical software that engineers who have battled cancer would be better at. Imagine you are making one of those medical devices that sits next to a cancer patient's bed post-chemo and shows a bunch of numbers. Now if you fought cancer, you've probably had lots of experience lying in that bed next to those screens, and you could have a much better intuition about how those screens should look and how they should present their visualizations in ways that make a patient more confident. Or imagine the software engineer wants to, you know, talk with some patients or doctors to understand what to make: the engineer who battled cancer will probably be much better understanding what the patients (and doctors) want.

Red_Tarsius 10y ago

I'm trying to stop reading news from US/UK sources. The depth of political discourse only goes as far as your self-appointed identity. Actions don't matter anymore. White people are guilty of colonialism much like Catholic children inherit the Original Sin, that is, it's a means of control by anti-intellectuals. I wouldn't support Trump, but the American Left is especially dangerous because it relies on gender / racial divide to get the most votes. In some twisted sense, the problem is not supposed to be solved. Skin color does not make Obama an expert in race relations. If he had said "...but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly black, who are building the core computer science around AI..." there would have been riots in the streets. Tim Hunt's joke was taken out of context and almost ruined his career. EDIT: To be clear, his white remark was fully intentional.

bcook 10y ago
Can you share a link to the Dawkins' out-of-context joke?
- Red_Tarsius 10y ago
  I wrote the comment in a hurry, I meant Tim Hunt. Sorry, I'm going to fix the original post. On 8 June 2015, during the 2015 World Conference of Science Journalists in Seoul, at a lunch for female journalists and scientists, Hunt was asked on short notice to give a toast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt). He made a self-deprecating comment and media vultures run with it. He was shamed out of the Royal Society and UCL.
cheriot 10y ago
> Skin color does not make Obama an expert in race relations. Nor does your observation mean he's NOT an expert in race relations. You're making the same mistake as the people you criticize in applying generalities to specific cases.
- Red_Tarsius 10y ago
  We are biased to believe that minority groups are more fit to solve racial issues. But skin color is a not a sufficient condition for race relations expertise. Obama is not strictly right/wrong due to his identity. There is no other meaning to my previous post.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]