> Now, let's talk about the state, because that's where the real problem and the lock-in might be? State is hard, state has momentum. We do what everyone else

> Now, let's talk about the state, because that's where the real problem and the lock-in might be? State is hard, state has momentum. We do what everyone else does: we push it out into a separate parallel space. Heroku do that with their PostgreSQL and Kafka services. We do it with services. IBM, Amazon, Google, Microsoft all do it with services. Cloud Foundry is agnostic to the services. More agnostic if you use BOSH. Less agnostic if you use a non-BOSH service (like RDS). Heroku isn't. You're married to their PostgreSQL unless you want to build your own or switch to RDS. Kubernetes has more of an emphasis on attaching and detaching volumes. I can do that with BOSH; in future it'll be an app-level feature too. (edited to remove unnecessary grump)