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Out of interest, what's wrong with soy protein?

by Torn 10y ago

hatsunearu 10y ago
There was some discussion on the Soylent thread a while back saying soy protein can cause hormonal imbalances. Not sure if I believe that to be honest.
- jm547ster 10y ago
  Bodybuilders avoid it due to claims of increased oestrogen production. I haven't investigated this myself but unlikely most people are going to be adding 200+ grams of it to their diets
  - grardb 10y ago
    Not all bodybuilders do. Most, probably, but there are a number who don't believe the estrogen/soy propaganda. If anyone's interested, I would check out this YouTuber. There are a number of them, but I really like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItbM2FfSt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItbM2FfSt0. The video is his six month review of veganism (he's been doing it for over a year now). Anyway, I'm not a vegan or trying to promote the diet/lifestyle. I just want to make people aware that there are plenty of counterexamples[1] to the claims about soy ruining your hormones. [1] veganbodybuilding.com
dogma1138 10y ago
Soy especially unfermented soy has pretty bad health effects when consumed in any meaningful dose daily. Soy isn't "healthy" it's not used as a replacement for food in Asia, it's mostly used in small amounts to add flavour or as a condiment, and it's almost always fermented. In the west people use unfermented soy as replacement for many type of foods including dairy, meat and wheat in excessive amounts. What worse is that Soy protein prevents the absorption of other proteins as it contains a fairly large amount of trypsin inhibitors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor To render soy "safe" it usually need to be heat treated to break down STI and a several potentially risky amino acids, this isn't viable with all soy products (e.g. milk) or products that already contain soy as an ingredient (you can't microwave a candy bar), and heat treating soy tends to lower it's nutritional value considerably as well as ruin the flavor and the texture in many cases. But as stated before fermented soy products (various soy sauces, miso etc.) aren't as an issue the fermentation breaks apart most of the potentially risky stuff in soy including STI's and amino acids like Valine (which is causally linked to insulin resistance, while most foods contain valine 10g of soy protein would contain about 400mg of it), honestly the fact that most traditional soy foods are fermented to begin with probably isn't a coincidence.
- wodenokoto 10y ago
  Is soy milk in Asia fermented? Drinking warm soy milk for breakfast is really common across Asia. Edamame beans, which are soy beans, are also commonly consumed without any kind of fermentation. They are just steamed and salted. Tofu is also not fermented and is very common in Asia and made from soy beans.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Edamame beans are steamed, hence heat treated. Soy milk did not became widely adopted in Asia until they started boiling it, again heat treating. Tofu is made by coagulating soy milk with acid or salt effectively doing the same process as fermentation/heat treatment in regards to enzymes and amino acids contained within the soy. So.... wanna try again?
    - SwellJoe 10y ago
      So, heating soy solves the problem? You reckon there are soy-based burgers that aren't heated? I don't think I've ever eaten an uncooked burger of any sort.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Heat treating it, e.g. like traditional production of soy milk (where it's brought to boil or near boil for a long duration) does, simply heating it doesn't. A soy burger doesn't have to be cooked, it might need to be warm for taste and texture but there is no intrinsic reason why a replacement meat burger has to be grilled or cooked until the core temperature reaches the needed 54-60c like one would be cooking meat. If you create an already ready to eat patty with large amount of untreated soy protein and unless you fully cook the burger which might not be required or even not recommended to preserve texture/flavor, and even then it's not as simple since the heat treatment process to make soy "safe" is usually longer (and at a higher temperature) than what you would get to by grilling the burger as it was meat.
      - wodenokoto 10y ago
wodenokoto 10y ago
Apparently they break down in the body into hormones similar to estrogen, and is accused of causing hormonal imbalance in men and women. Here's a good example of the anti-soy party line: http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects If it is really that bad is hard to say. There are plenty articles online that ask the question "will soy give you man boobs" and surprisingly you'll find Betteridge's law of headlines broken, as there are articles that answer this question in both affirmative and negative.
- olejorgenb 10y ago
  Compared to milk which contain actual estrogen...
  - refurb 10y ago
    Milk doesn't contain any concerning level of estrogen. Not sure where you got that from.
    - kevb 10y ago
      Nor does soy
  - wodenokoto 10y ago
    My point wasn't to defend that viewpoint, but merely to present it to parent, who wasn't aware of this being a big deal, to a lot of people. I'm sorry if I made it sound I was promoting a stance in this matter one way or another, I merely tried to introduce this argument /viewpoint neutrally.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  Just an anecdote, my mom went vegetarian consisting mostly of soy products (tofu and the like) for about a decade during which her the amount of blood she menstruated went sky high in terms of volume. She dropped the whole diet but the menstruation problem still remained until a doctor found she had a tumor in her uterus which meant she had to get a hysterectomy. I'm not sure if the soy estrogens promoted growth in the tumor (thus the excess menstrual blood problem) so I'm very cautious about eating unprocessed/untreated soy products because of that one incident.
aedocw 10y ago
Most of the questions regarding the benefits and dangers of soy are expertly covered here (including sources). http://examine.com/nutrition/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me/ http://examine.com/nutrition/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me/

Out of interest, what's wrong with soy protein?

by Torn 10y ago

Out of interest, what's wrong with soy protein?

There was some discussion on the Soylent thread a while back saying soy protein can cause hormonal imbalances. Not sure if I believe that to be honest.

jm547ster 10y ago
Bodybuilders avoid it due to claims of increased oestrogen production. I haven't investigated this myself but unlikely most people are going to be adding 200+ grams of it to their diets
- grardb 10y ago
  Not all bodybuilders do. Most, probably, but there are a number who don't believe the estrogen/soy propaganda. If anyone's interested, I would check out this YouTuber. There are a number of them, but I really like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItbM2FfSt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItbM2FfSt0. The video is his six month review of veganism (he's been doing it for over a year now). Anyway, I'm not a vegan or trying to promote the diet/lifestyle. I just want to make people aware that there are plenty of counterexamples[1] to the claims about soy ruining your hormones. [1] veganbodybuilding.com

dogma1138 10y ago

Soy especially unfermented soy has pretty bad health effects when consumed in any meaningful dose daily. Soy isn't "healthy" it's not used as a replacement for food in Asia, it's mostly used in small amounts to add flavour or as a condiment, and it's almost always fermented. In the west people use unfermented soy as replacement for many type of foods including dairy, meat and wheat in excessive amounts. What worse is that Soy protein prevents the absorption of other proteins as it contains a fairly large amount of trypsin inhibitors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor To render soy "safe" it usually need to be heat treated to break down STI and a several potentially risky amino acids, this isn't viable with all soy products (e.g. milk) or products that already contain soy as an ingredient (you can't microwave a candy bar), and heat treating soy tends to lower it's nutritional value considerably as well as ruin the flavor and the texture in many cases. But as stated before fermented soy products (various soy sauces, miso etc.) aren't as an issue the fermentation breaks apart most of the potentially risky stuff in soy including STI's and amino acids like Valine (which is causally linked to insulin resistance, while most foods contain valine 10g of soy protein would contain about 400mg of it), honestly the fact that most traditional soy foods are fermented to begin with probably isn't a coincidence.

wodenokoto 10y ago
Is soy milk in Asia fermented? Drinking warm soy milk for breakfast is really common across Asia. Edamame beans, which are soy beans, are also commonly consumed without any kind of fermentation. They are just steamed and salted. Tofu is also not fermented and is very common in Asia and made from soy beans.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Edamame beans are steamed, hence heat treated. Soy milk did not became widely adopted in Asia until they started boiling it, again heat treating. Tofu is made by coagulating soy milk with acid or salt effectively doing the same process as fermentation/heat treatment in regards to enzymes and amino acids contained within the soy. So.... wanna try again?
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    So, heating soy solves the problem? You reckon there are soy-based burgers that aren't heated? I don't think I've ever eaten an uncooked burger of any sort.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Heat treating it, e.g. like traditional production of soy milk (where it's brought to boil or near boil for a long duration) does, simply heating it doesn't. A soy burger doesn't have to be cooked, it might need to be warm for taste and texture but there is no intrinsic reason why a replacement meat burger has to be grilled or cooked until the core temperature reaches the needed 54-60c like one would be cooking meat. If you create an already ready to eat patty with large amount of untreated soy protein and unless you fully cook the burger which might not be required or even not recommended to preserve texture/flavor, and even then it's not as simple since the heat treatment process to make soy "safe" is usually longer (and at a higher temperature) than what you would get to by grilling the burger as it was meat.
    - wodenokoto 10y ago

wodenokoto 10y ago

Apparently they break down in the body into hormones similar to estrogen, and is accused of causing hormonal imbalance in men and women. Here's a good example of the anti-soy party line: http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects If it is really that bad is hard to say. There are plenty articles online that ask the question "will soy give you man boobs" and surprisingly you'll find Betteridge's law of headlines broken, as there are articles that answer this question in both affirmative and negative.

olejorgenb 10y ago
Compared to milk which contain actual estrogen...
- refurb 10y ago
  Milk doesn't contain any concerning level of estrogen. Not sure where you got that from.
  - kevb 10y ago
    Nor does soy
- wodenokoto 10y ago
  My point wasn't to defend that viewpoint, but merely to present it to parent, who wasn't aware of this being a big deal, to a lot of people. I'm sorry if I made it sound I was promoting a stance in this matter one way or another, I merely tried to introduce this argument /viewpoint neutrally.
norea-armozel 10y ago
Just an anecdote, my mom went vegetarian consisting mostly of soy products (tofu and the like) for about a decade during which her the amount of blood she menstruated went sky high in terms of volume. She dropped the whole diet but the menstruation problem still remained until a doctor found she had a tumor in her uterus which meant she had to get a hysterectomy. I'm not sure if the soy estrogens promoted growth in the tumor (thus the excess menstrual blood problem) so I'm very cautious about eating unprocessed/untreated soy products because of that one incident.

aedocw 10y ago

Most of the questions regarding the benefits and dangers of soy are expertly covered here (including sources). http://examine.com/nutrition/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me/ http://examine.com/nutrition/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me/