8 ms·

To be honest with you, if you have to ask that question, you don't need SQL Server. In order not to mistake my comment with an attack (it really isn't) one rea

by blahi 10y ago

To be honest with you, if you have to ask that question, you don't need SQL Server. In order not to mistake my comment with an attack (it really isn't) one reason is tooling. Postgres doesn't have 1/10th of the tooling available for SQL Server. Another is BI. There isn't a better BI stack out there than Microsoft's. Also the price if very small compared to the competition and licensing costs are dwarfed by implementation costs, in general. So no, SQL Server is not expensive at all. Also the documentation is actually very, very good.

dccoolgai 10y ago
Also, SQL Server gets you some pretty nice benchmarks virtually out of the box. You can beat it on PostGres sometimes, but only after considerable configuration/optimization. And, like you said, the toolchain. SQL Studio will spoil you.
- serguzest 10y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, MS Sql server isn't true MVCC database and there is some support and it is not default, you have to set READ_COMMITTED_SNAPSHOT ON for the database. They implemented it in 2005. Most microsoft shops don't bother to develop their softwares for this, they are using archaic locking transactions. I've seen many Sql Server deployments keep choking on locking transactions and and people are buyin bigger servers, more Windows and Sql Server licences for each cpu/core to deal with their choked database server. So while Postgresql's defaults are all about technical concerns, Sql server's defaults are just convenient for Microsoft sales team.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    I can't comment on whether this is correct, but on the MSSQL box I integrate with, lock contention and the server automatically killing deadlocked queries is a regular occurrence. Like 50+ times a day regular.
  - AaronFriel 10y ago
    Both are true! MS SQL Server is a "true MVCC" database (no-true Scotsman?) and you are correct. SQL Server supports snapshot/MVCC isolation for transactions, but it must be enabled. They are determined to maintain 20 years of backward compatibility, and while I think that's wrong, they leave snapshot isolation disabled by default. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms173763.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms173763.aspx
    - serguzest 10y ago
      It uses tempdb for tracking versions, it is not true mvcc in the engine.
      - br1 10y ago
        That's an internal detail. It's much cleaner than postgresql that leaves old tuples in disk and has to vacuum them later.
      - greggyb 10y ago
        It also offers an optimized in-memory transactional engine that is lockless and compiles stored procedures to native code.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  You also get SSDT with SQL Server. PG has nothing like it - https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh272686(v=vs.103).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh272686(v=vs.103)....
iwintermute 10y ago
Can you elaborate on BI stack? How MS covers all chain?
- broknbottle 10y ago
  I believe he is referring to Business Intelligence.
  - iwintermute 10y ago
    Yes, I got it, there's SSIS, DB/OLAP, but after that? and I'm not sure, that SSIS & etc. is present in Express version.
    - UK-AL 10y ago
      This is for developers building apps locally, you create your own dockerised container for prod. Express is basically free, its the real production versions that cost.
      - kemiller2002 10y ago
        What's interesting about MS too, is that depending on what you do, the production versions still aren't that much money. If you do any sort of commercial software development, MS will pretty much give you a bunch of free software (including MSSQL to a point) just to keep you on the stack and to advertise that you use their products over others. Between BizSpark and the Partnership Network, it's very reasonable.
    - coredog64 10y ago
      Not sure about 2016, but the 2012 version of Express did have a SKU that included SSRS. There are some limitations to the version. A looong time ago I wrote a utility[0] to work around some of those limitations as we had the licensed version but we were working with partners who had Express. There are also some questions/answers on StackOverflow [1] that suggest you can mostly get by with doing SSIS stuff against the Express version as well, but you don't get all the capabilities. [0] https://github.com/spc-ofp/RelinkSSRS https://github.com/spc-ofp/RelinkSSRS [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/292564/can-i-run-ssis-packages-with-sql-server-express-or-web-or-workgroup-editions http://stackoverflow.com/questions/292564/can-i-run-ssis-pac...
osweiller 10y ago
To be honest with you, if you have to ask that question, you don't need SQL Server What a patronizing, obnoxious response. You attempt to follow it up with a justification, but it does the opposite -- remove the first two obnoxious sentences from your reply and it's more coherent and useful, if a little fictitious (1/10th? Really? There is an absolutely enormous amount of tooling for pgsql, including tooling that dramatically changes the underlying product. This doesn't exist for mssql). I like MSSQL. It's a fast, well tuned product. It's a very good option if you're in the Microsoft camp. So no, SQL Server is not expensive at all. More fiction. Aside from Oracle-like per core pricing, in various SQL Server engagements we spent literally hundreds of hours dealing with licensing and compliant bullshit involved with using a commercially licensed product. It is such an engineering relief using Linux+pgsql where those concerns simply disappear.
jdright 10y ago
But you need to reboot on install, updates and uninstall, all these operations that can take up to two hours for no reason. And the express edition is capped at 10gb db. So, no, SQL server is nothing better than alternatives at least if you aren't in the big ones and DBA is your job.
- grobbles 10y ago
  (yes this will be dead. That's okay) Over my career I've attained my MCSE, MCDBA, MCSD certificates. I've worked on and deployed massive solutions on the Microsoft stack, and still do. But I absolutely cringe at how Microsoft fanboy this site has become. The post you replied to is pure cringe, and many of these comments are the sort of hilariously dreamy nonsense that these people parrot about solutions like Windows Phone. Some vague, hand wavy "well Microsoft makes other stuff too!" sort of noise. This whole site has been overwhelmed by mediocre Microsoft devs. The amount of actually informative content has fallen to close to 0.
- jdright 10y ago
  Nice, downvoted for what? facts? This is a fact, I work with this thing for about 5 years (this is my karma) and there is not a single day where this doesn't cause a problem or makes somebody to lose 3-5 hours of work. We have about 3000 people and this is overkill for our needs. You know what the reason? Because people say that it is awesome, then a naive engineer decide to use it basically due to this propaganda in a LOCAL but central piece of our pipeline (something that SQLite would fit perfectly!) and then everything after becomes a problem. Now we're stuck with it to day and nobody can change without a lot of work and trouble. I'm basically one of the people responsible in a strike team to fix SQL server issues in production.
  - alexc05 10y ago
    I suspect the downvotes (I didn't, but I can see why someone would) are related to the impression you're giving that this is useless in its entirety because it isn't something that is perfect for you. > But you need to reboot on install, updates and uninstall, this may be true, but can be mitigated with planning. MS's patch cycle is some predicatable multiple of "weekly" (I think it's either every thursday or every second thursday, whatever) Our tech team schedules one member to work from midnight to 2 AM on "patch day" As an alternative you could architect for rolling updates across load-balanced systems. I'm not personally fussed about the drawbacks either way, the mitigation is easily planned for. It becomes a part of the cost-benefit analysis. Now consider the world of containers, startup is actually ridiculously quick. In addition they need to be patched far less frequently. They have less "cruft" from the get go. I'd recommend this entire video, but this graph highlights some of the advantages: https://youtu.be/XVtsw-uzovA?t=500 https://youtu.be/XVtsw-uzovA?t=500 70% fewer reboots required on containers. 90% fewer critical patches. > all these operations that can take up to two hours for no reason. the workflow can be: spin up the newly pathed server while the old one is running, then "flip the switch" so new requests point to the patched machine. They both point to the same physical files. When the old machine finishes its current cycle, it shuts down gracefully. Fully mitigated by a container workflow. > And the express edition is capped at 10gb db. yes, but this is not actually something that needs to be all things to all people, or even something specifically for you. It still has value. The express edition is intended to be used by developers and "small data" applications. I don't see what the express edition license is from this link, but I'm sure it is expressly not intended to be an enterprise database. If I were downvoting you, it would likely be because you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this. Once we get SQLSERVER running in containers, there's nothing to say we can't swap out to the enterprise edition virtually seamlessly. > So, no, SQL server is nothing better than alternatives at least if you aren't in the big ones and DBA is your job. Again, you're coming across as crapping on "a good thing" because it isn't the perfect thing for you. That comes across as petulant, selfish, and irrational ... all of which tend to be features that the Hacker News community prides itself on edit: discouraging. So, with respect, I'd suggest you're not getting downvoted for "facts" but for "tone" Even your follow up comes across as, I almost want to say "entitled" I'm sorry, I don't want to start a flame war with you, but I'm letting you know what my "read" of your post comes across as. If you're offended by it I'm happy to delete.
iamcreasy 10y ago
Just curious, What are the toolings that makes SQL server stand out? Also what is BI?
- knz 10y ago
  Business Intelligence - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_intelligence
- syshum 10y ago
  >>>Also what is BI? Business Intelligence helps corporations analyze on their core competency in order to synergize growth strategies globally for cloud-centric and client-focused innovation
  - nocman 10y ago
    Wow, the first thing that sentence made me think of was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4 xD

by blahi 10y ago

dccoolgai 10y ago

Also, SQL Server gets you some pretty nice benchmarks virtually out of the box. You can beat it on PostGres sometimes, but only after considerable configuration/optimization. And, like you said, the toolchain. SQL Studio will spoil you.

serguzest 10y ago
Correct me if I am wrong, MS Sql server isn't true MVCC database and there is some support and it is not default, you have to set READ_COMMITTED_SNAPSHOT ON for the database. They implemented it in 2005. Most microsoft shops don't bother to develop their softwares for this, they are using archaic locking transactions. I've seen many Sql Server deployments keep choking on locking transactions and and people are buyin bigger servers, more Windows and Sql Server licences for each cpu/core to deal with their choked database server. So while Postgresql's defaults are all about technical concerns, Sql server's defaults are just convenient for Microsoft sales team.
- kbenson 10y ago
  I can't comment on whether this is correct, but on the MSSQL box I integrate with, lock contention and the server automatically killing deadlocked queries is a regular occurrence. Like 50+ times a day regular.
- AaronFriel 10y ago
  Both are true! MS SQL Server is a "true MVCC" database (no-true Scotsman?) and you are correct. SQL Server supports snapshot/MVCC isolation for transactions, but it must be enabled. They are determined to maintain 20 years of backward compatibility, and while I think that's wrong, they leave snapshot isolation disabled by default. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms173763.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms173763.aspx
  - serguzest 10y ago
    It uses tempdb for tracking versions, it is not true mvcc in the engine.
    - br1 10y ago
      That's an internal detail. It's much cleaner than postgresql that leaves old tuples in disk and has to vacuum them later.
    - greggyb 10y ago
      It also offers an optimized in-memory transactional engine that is lockless and compiles stored procedures to native code.
WayneBro 10y ago
You also get SSDT with SQL Server. PG has nothing like it - https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh272686(v=vs.103).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh272686(v=vs.103)....

iwintermute 10y ago

Can you elaborate on BI stack? How MS covers all chain?

broknbottle 10y ago
I believe he is referring to Business Intelligence.
- iwintermute 10y ago
  Yes, I got it, there's SSIS, DB/OLAP, but after that? and I'm not sure, that SSIS & etc. is present in Express version.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    This is for developers building apps locally, you create your own dockerised container for prod. Express is basically free, its the real production versions that cost.
    - kemiller2002 10y ago
      What's interesting about MS too, is that depending on what you do, the production versions still aren't that much money. If you do any sort of commercial software development, MS will pretty much give you a bunch of free software (including MSSQL to a point) just to keep you on the stack and to advertise that you use their products over others. Between BizSpark and the Partnership Network, it's very reasonable.
  - coredog64 10y ago
    Not sure about 2016, but the 2012 version of Express did have a SKU that included SSRS. There are some limitations to the version. A looong time ago I wrote a utility[0] to work around some of those limitations as we had the licensed version but we were working with partners who had Express. There are also some questions/answers on StackOverflow [1] that suggest you can mostly get by with doing SSIS stuff against the Express version as well, but you don't get all the capabilities. [0] https://github.com/spc-ofp/RelinkSSRS https://github.com/spc-ofp/RelinkSSRS [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/292564/can-i-run-ssis-packages-with-sql-server-express-or-web-or-workgroup-editions http://stackoverflow.com/questions/292564/can-i-run-ssis-pac...

osweiller 10y ago

To be honest with you, if you have to ask that question, you don't need SQL Server What a patronizing, obnoxious response. You attempt to follow it up with a justification, but it does the opposite -- remove the first two obnoxious sentences from your reply and it's more coherent and useful, if a little fictitious (1/10th? Really? There is an absolutely enormous amount of tooling for pgsql, including tooling that dramatically changes the underlying product. This doesn't exist for mssql). I like MSSQL. It's a fast, well tuned product. It's a very good option if you're in the Microsoft camp. So no, SQL Server is not expensive at all. More fiction. Aside from Oracle-like per core pricing, in various SQL Server engagements we spent literally hundreds of hours dealing with licensing and compliant bullshit involved with using a commercially licensed product. It is such an engineering relief using Linux+pgsql where those concerns simply disappear.

jdright 10y ago

But you need to reboot on install, updates and uninstall, all these operations that can take up to two hours for no reason. And the express edition is capped at 10gb db. So, no, SQL server is nothing better than alternatives at least if you aren't in the big ones and DBA is your job.

grobbles 10y ago
(yes this will be dead. That's okay) Over my career I've attained my MCSE, MCDBA, MCSD certificates. I've worked on and deployed massive solutions on the Microsoft stack, and still do. But I absolutely cringe at how Microsoft fanboy this site has become. The post you replied to is pure cringe, and many of these comments are the sort of hilariously dreamy nonsense that these people parrot about solutions like Windows Phone. Some vague, hand wavy "well Microsoft makes other stuff too!" sort of noise. This whole site has been overwhelmed by mediocre Microsoft devs. The amount of actually informative content has fallen to close to 0.
jdright 10y ago
Nice, downvoted for what? facts? This is a fact, I work with this thing for about 5 years (this is my karma) and there is not a single day where this doesn't cause a problem or makes somebody to lose 3-5 hours of work. We have about 3000 people and this is overkill for our needs. You know what the reason? Because people say that it is awesome, then a naive engineer decide to use it basically due to this propaganda in a LOCAL but central piece of our pipeline (something that SQLite would fit perfectly!) and then everything after becomes a problem. Now we're stuck with it to day and nobody can change without a lot of work and trouble. I'm basically one of the people responsible in a strike team to fix SQL server issues in production.
- alexc05 10y ago
  I suspect the downvotes (I didn't, but I can see why someone would) are related to the impression you're giving that this is useless in its entirety because it isn't something that is perfect for you. > But you need to reboot on install, updates and uninstall, this may be true, but can be mitigated with planning. MS's patch cycle is some predicatable multiple of "weekly" (I think it's either every thursday or every second thursday, whatever) Our tech team schedules one member to work from midnight to 2 AM on "patch day" As an alternative you could architect for rolling updates across load-balanced systems. I'm not personally fussed about the drawbacks either way, the mitigation is easily planned for. It becomes a part of the cost-benefit analysis. Now consider the world of containers, startup is actually ridiculously quick. In addition they need to be patched far less frequently. They have less "cruft" from the get go. I'd recommend this entire video, but this graph highlights some of the advantages: https://youtu.be/XVtsw-uzovA?t=500 https://youtu.be/XVtsw-uzovA?t=500 70% fewer reboots required on containers. 90% fewer critical patches. > all these operations that can take up to two hours for no reason. the workflow can be: spin up the newly pathed server while the old one is running, then "flip the switch" so new requests point to the patched machine. They both point to the same physical files. When the old machine finishes its current cycle, it shuts down gracefully. Fully mitigated by a container workflow. > And the express edition is capped at 10gb db. yes, but this is not actually something that needs to be all things to all people, or even something specifically for you. It still has value. The express edition is intended to be used by developers and "small data" applications. I don't see what the express edition license is from this link, but I'm sure it is expressly not intended to be an enterprise database. If I were downvoting you, it would likely be because you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this. Once we get SQLSERVER running in containers, there's nothing to say we can't swap out to the enterprise edition virtually seamlessly. > So, no, SQL server is nothing better than alternatives at least if you aren't in the big ones and DBA is your job. Again, you're coming across as crapping on "a good thing" because it isn't the perfect thing for you. That comes across as petulant, selfish, and irrational ... all of which tend to be features that the Hacker News community prides itself on edit: discouraging. So, with respect, I'd suggest you're not getting downvoted for "facts" but for "tone" Even your follow up comes across as, I almost want to say "entitled" I'm sorry, I don't want to start a flame war with you, but I'm letting you know what my "read" of your post comes across as. If you're offended by it I'm happy to delete.

iamcreasy 10y ago

Just curious, What are the toolings that makes SQL server stand out? Also what is BI?

knz 10y ago
Business Intelligence - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_intelligence
syshum 10y ago
>>>Also what is BI? Business Intelligence helps corporations analyze on their core competency in order to synergize growth strategies globally for cloud-centric and client-focused innovation
- nocman 10y ago
  Wow, the first thing that sentence made me think of was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4 xD