4 ms·

WTF are you talking about? I pay for plenty of services. In fact, I love paying for good services. Dropbox is a great example. So is Campaign Monitor, Zendesk,

by dhh 17y ago

WTF are you talking about? I pay for plenty of services. In fact, I love paying for good services. Dropbox is a great example. So is Campaign Monitor, Zendesk, and Survey Monkey. Give shit away for free and people will take it for free.

gsmaverick 17y ago
How much do you pay for a search engine? You think that the 37s business model applies to every web business out there and it doesn't!
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonfried 17y ago
  The 37signals business model, also known as "a business", is the business model employed by about 99% of all businesses on the planet. They make a product or offer a service and their customers pay them for it.
  - gsmaverick 17y ago
    But you think it works for all 100% of businesses. And that's where you're wrong. A search engine is a perfect example of a product which would fail if they tried to sell access. But you can continue to pad your ego and think you know everything there is to know about business.
    - startuprules 17y ago
      "A search engine is a perfect example of a product which would fail if they tried to sell access" Name a search engine that failed because they tried charging people. "But you can continue to pad your ego and think you know everything there is to know about business." What's your qualification, oh internet anonymous? At least they're speaking from years of knowledge from hard work.
    - techiferous 17y ago
      "But you think it works for all 100% of businesses." Did David or Jason actually say something to this effect?
  - axod 17y ago
    Business isn't that clear cut at all. For example, estate agents (realtors?) really serve 2 people - sellers, and buyers. They give their services for free to one party (buyers), and charge the other. They're pretty similar to ad supported websites. Employment agencies commonly do a lot of work to get you a job, whilst charging you nothing in return. They instead charge the company that hires you. Free papers are routinely given away, and instead make money from advertising. TV stations the same. Banking is also free for individual customers (in the UK), and the banks make that money back on average, from business accounts and overdrafts etc. Credit cards are another example. Usually free to consumers (If you pay balance in full), and the seller pays the fees. Of course they also make money if customers don't pay the balance off. Receiving telephone calls, SMS etc is also completely free most of the time (The sender pays). [At least in UK] There are countless other examples of real world profitable big businesses that give stuff away to customers for free. Trying to pretend that every business on the planet, and the only types of viable businesses are ones that charge customers money directly, is plain silly. We get that you hate/don't understand/have had bad luck with advertising in the past, but that doesn't mean it's not viable and very lucrative if done properly.
    - apsurd 17y ago
      I don't think he said anything about absolutely needing to charge customers directly? "They make a product or offer a service and their customers pay them for it." In all your scenarios, there is an entity that is paying the company for a product or service rendered. They may not be a simple definition of the word "customer" but they are a customer none-the-less. I think the issue is more about smart business. No one is going to knock ning (and there would be no reason for their new strategy) if they figured out how to make money on their freemium model. But they didn't! And that's not good business. Obligatory google example: It's free. Yay, search all you want. Google's customers are the advertisers that pay for ad positioning. Yes the users are the customers too, but that does not mean that the advertisers aren't.
      - axod 17y ago
        The issue with ning was they took a stupid amount of investment IMHO. If they hadn't they'd be profitable. 'Ad revenue' > 'Cost of serving a few dumb HTTP requests' => profit. That equation is simple, and holds pretty well. If you're spending more money serving HTTP requests than you can make from advertising, you're doing it wrong.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]

by dhh 17y ago

gsmaverick 17y ago

How much do you pay for a search engine? You think that the 37s business model applies to every web business out there and it doesn't!

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jasonfried 17y ago
The 37signals business model, also known as "a business", is the business model employed by about 99% of all businesses on the planet. They make a product or offer a service and their customers pay them for it.
- gsmaverick 17y ago
  But you think it works for all 100% of businesses. And that's where you're wrong. A search engine is a perfect example of a product which would fail if they tried to sell access. But you can continue to pad your ego and think you know everything there is to know about business.
  - startuprules 17y ago
    "A search engine is a perfect example of a product which would fail if they tried to sell access" Name a search engine that failed because they tried charging people. "But you can continue to pad your ego and think you know everything there is to know about business." What's your qualification, oh internet anonymous? At least they're speaking from years of knowledge from hard work.
  - techiferous 17y ago
    "But you think it works for all 100% of businesses." Did David or Jason actually say something to this effect?
- axod 17y ago
  Business isn't that clear cut at all. For example, estate agents (realtors?) really serve 2 people - sellers, and buyers. They give their services for free to one party (buyers), and charge the other. They're pretty similar to ad supported websites. Employment agencies commonly do a lot of work to get you a job, whilst charging you nothing in return. They instead charge the company that hires you. Free papers are routinely given away, and instead make money from advertising. TV stations the same. Banking is also free for individual customers (in the UK), and the banks make that money back on average, from business accounts and overdrafts etc. Credit cards are another example. Usually free to consumers (If you pay balance in full), and the seller pays the fees. Of course they also make money if customers don't pay the balance off. Receiving telephone calls, SMS etc is also completely free most of the time (The sender pays). [At least in UK] There are countless other examples of real world profitable big businesses that give stuff away to customers for free. Trying to pretend that every business on the planet, and the only types of viable businesses are ones that charge customers money directly, is plain silly. We get that you hate/don't understand/have had bad luck with advertising in the past, but that doesn't mean it's not viable and very lucrative if done properly.
  - apsurd 17y ago
    I don't think he said anything about absolutely needing to charge customers directly? "They make a product or offer a service and their customers pay them for it." In all your scenarios, there is an entity that is paying the company for a product or service rendered. They may not be a simple definition of the word "customer" but they are a customer none-the-less. I think the issue is more about smart business. No one is going to knock ning (and there would be no reason for their new strategy) if they figured out how to make money on their freemium model. But they didn't! And that's not good business. Obligatory google example: It's free. Yay, search all you want. Google's customers are the advertisers that pay for ad positioning. Yes the users are the customers too, but that does not mean that the advertisers aren't.
    - axod 17y ago
      The issue with ning was they took a stupid amount of investment IMHO. If they hadn't they'd be profitable. 'Ad revenue' > 'Cost of serving a few dumb HTTP requests' => profit. That equation is simple, and holds pretty well. If you're spending more money serving HTTP requests than you can make from advertising, you're doing it wrong.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]