4 ms·

What's with the "no NDA required"? Who requires NDAs for their datasheets?

Jasper_ 10y ago
Every chip vendor I've dealt with, from Amlogic to Allwinner to Freescale, requires a signed NDA for full documentation. Public documentation is usually heavily redacted. The GR8 seems to be a rebadged Allwinner chip, and the no-NDA datasheet seems to be next to useless, to be honest.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "The GR8 seems to be a rebadged Allwinner chip" It could be, but reading up on the features of the C.H.I.P. Pro it supports mainline Linux. I assumed this meant without blobs. Is there mainline support for any Allwinner chips?
  - mappu 10y ago
    Many A20 features are in mainline kernels now, although sunxi-3.4 is still recommended for full hardware support. http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort#Status_Matrix http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort#Status_Matrix EDIT: The GR8 is specifically called out on this page as having mainline support from kernel 4.9.
    - thom_nic 10y ago
      I've been running bananian with the 4.4 kernel on my bpi-R1 (A20 SoC) and everything seems to be working fine. Although I don't use it for anything graphical (it's a networking/storage/server device.) Can't say how much it's relying on binary blobs though.
    - mynameislegion 10y ago
      Sadly Allwinner did zero of that mainlining.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - thom_nic 10y ago
    The GR8 is an AllWinner R8 with RAM in a single piece of resin. They are targeting product builders, see the section: > Powered by a chip you can actually buy. > R8 SoC + 256MB DDR3 > 1 package. 1 price. > $6 in any quantity. (that's $6 for their rebadged chip.) TBH this looks like not a bad solution for someone looking to board-down a linux capable product. I wonder if the GR8 needs a power mgt chip or if that's integrated into the SoC as well. Back to your original question, NTC (among others) worked with AllWinner I believe to mainline some of the R8 code and reduce (or possibly eliminate?) binary blobs.
  - milcron 10y ago
    > it supports mainline Linux. I assumed this meant without blobs Fun fact, there are blobs in mainline Linux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux-libre#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux-libre#History
- userbinator 10y ago
  One of the good things with the Chinese companies is that the datasheets will usually make it out into the public if the chips get popular enough. A byproduct of the "Gongkai" ecosystem: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
- countingteeth 10y ago
  What do you mean by "full documentation" and "NDA"? Go to NXP.com, sign up for an online account, and you can download full reference manuals for most of their products. They may hold errata and more low-level/non-user documentation closer to the chest, if your sign-up data is obviously fake or appears to be North Korean your account may not be activated, but it's not the case that you need to have an NDA signed in blood to get manuals.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
blackguardx 10y ago
Many companies. Almost too many to list. This is probably a dig at Broadcom who makes the chip in the Raspberry Pi and usually requires NDAs for their chips. Hell, Broadcom won't even let you buy many of their chips without their permission!
- mynameislegion 10y ago
  OTOH Broadcom is paying someone to write open source 3D drivers for the chip in the RPi: http://anholt.livejournal.com/ http://anholt.livejournal.com/
yuubi 10y ago
A lot of vendors do for recent processors. You can easily get a z80 datasheet, but not necessarily complete info for a recent ARM SoC.
avhon1 10y ago
Pretty much every SOC manufacturer. To protect their intellectual property, they control access to the documents that describe the behavior of their products. Also, if you leak any of their intellectual property, the NDA allows them to sue their lost profits (due to clones of their product) out of you.
- stbtrax 10y ago
  It's not every SOC manufacturer. TI and NXP do not require NDAs for their datasheets, only for the security subsystem perhaps.
  - kingosticks 10y ago
    Do you know if these manufacturers then suffer any more from IP theft because of the more open policy? Or are the NDAs here used more as a 'serious customer' vetting tool so they can concentrate their support efforts towards these customers?

Every chip vendor I've dealt with, from Amlogic to Allwinner to Freescale, requires a signed NDA for full documentation. Public documentation is usually heavily redacted. The GR8 seems to be a rebadged Allwinner chip, and the no-NDA datasheet seems to be next to useless, to be honest.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "The GR8 seems to be a rebadged Allwinner chip" It could be, but reading up on the features of the C.H.I.P. Pro it supports mainline Linux. I assumed this meant without blobs. Is there mainline support for any Allwinner chips?
- mappu 10y ago
  Many A20 features are in mainline kernels now, although sunxi-3.4 is still recommended for full hardware support. http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort#Status_Matrix http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort#Status_Matrix EDIT: The GR8 is specifically called out on this page as having mainline support from kernel 4.9.
  - thom_nic 10y ago
    I've been running bananian with the 4.4 kernel on my bpi-R1 (A20 SoC) and everything seems to be working fine. Although I don't use it for anything graphical (it's a networking/storage/server device.) Can't say how much it's relying on binary blobs though.
  - mynameislegion 10y ago
    Sadly Allwinner did zero of that mainlining.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- thom_nic 10y ago
  The GR8 is an AllWinner R8 with RAM in a single piece of resin. They are targeting product builders, see the section: > Powered by a chip you can actually buy. > R8 SoC + 256MB DDR3 > 1 package. 1 price. > $6 in any quantity. (that's $6 for their rebadged chip.) TBH this looks like not a bad solution for someone looking to board-down a linux capable product. I wonder if the GR8 needs a power mgt chip or if that's integrated into the SoC as well. Back to your original question, NTC (among others) worked with AllWinner I believe to mainline some of the R8 code and reduce (or possibly eliminate?) binary blobs.
- milcron 10y ago
  > it supports mainline Linux. I assumed this meant without blobs Fun fact, there are blobs in mainline Linux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux-libre#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux-libre#History
userbinator 10y ago
One of the good things with the Chinese companies is that the datasheets will usually make it out into the public if the chips get popular enough. A byproduct of the "Gongkai" ecosystem: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
countingteeth 10y ago
What do you mean by "full documentation" and "NDA"? Go to NXP.com, sign up for an online account, and you can download full reference manuals for most of their products. They may hold errata and more low-level/non-user documentation closer to the chest, if your sign-up data is obviously fake or appears to be North Korean your account may not be activated, but it's not the case that you need to have an NDA signed in blood to get manuals.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

blackguardx 10y ago

Many companies. Almost too many to list. This is probably a dig at Broadcom who makes the chip in the Raspberry Pi and usually requires NDAs for their chips. Hell, Broadcom won't even let you buy many of their chips without their permission!

mynameislegion 10y ago
OTOH Broadcom is paying someone to write open source 3D drivers for the chip in the RPi: http://anholt.livejournal.com/ http://anholt.livejournal.com/

yuubi 10y ago

A lot of vendors do for recent processors. You can easily get a z80 datasheet, but not necessarily complete info for a recent ARM SoC.

avhon1 10y ago

Pretty much every SOC manufacturer. To protect their intellectual property, they control access to the documents that describe the behavior of their products. Also, if you leak any of their intellectual property, the NDA allows them to sue their lost profits (due to clones of their product) out of you.

stbtrax 10y ago
It's not every SOC manufacturer. TI and NXP do not require NDAs for their datasheets, only for the security subsystem perhaps.
- kingosticks 10y ago
  Do you know if these manufacturers then suffer any more from IP theft because of the more open policy? Or are the NDAs here used more as a 'serious customer' vetting tool so they can concentrate their support efforts towards these customers?