7 ms·

Now if they would drop the ridiculous requirement of having a phone number and go with usernames and not require access to my contact list like most other servi

by AckSyn 10y ago

Now if they would drop the ridiculous requirement of having a phone number and go with usernames and not require access to my contact list like most other services, you could actually be safer and not rely on _their word_ alone.

mahyarm 10y ago
The app is open source and you could do something like a proxy or similar if you really want to be sure of what get sent from your client. The server is also open source too. As moxie said, it's about raising the defaults of the world, not about making it secure for the crypto nerd.
- throwaway7767 10y ago
  > As moxie said, it's about raising the defaults of the world, not about making it secure for the crypto nerd. The thing is, the attacks in the "crypto-nerd paranoia" category tend to become everyday attacks over time. Pre-Snowden, most people would put a lot of the things the NSA is doing into the "crypto-nerd paranoia" bucket. Now we know they were wrong to do so. Signal routes all conversation metadata through one infrastructure, which becomes a very tempting target. By also requiring phone numbers as identity, they make it very easy to tie that metadata to real people and perform graph analysis on it.
mifreewil 10y ago
With the approach that Signal has taken, it doesn't require you to register a username. The app just registers you with the server as a Signal user using your already unique ID - your phone number. While not the most secure and privacy-protecting method, it allows anyone to just install it and start using it as a secure alternative to plaintext SMS.
- lqdc13 10y ago
  Regarding SMS - it's not always an alternative to SMS since it uses data. I know data is more popular than SMS in many countries, but when you hit your monthly limit, you want to disable all data. Regarding the simplicity of using a phone number and how it would be very easy for all users - Wickr provides basically the same service, is more popular, but uses usernames instead of phone numbers. The fact that something is open source isn't always a clear win. OpenSSL, for example, is open source and yet they seem to have many bugs. For the record, I use Signal almost exclusively for communication. I just wish it was more protective of users' privacy without having to put in a ton of effort.
  - mifreewil 10y ago
    Yes, I should clarify what I mean as an alternative to SMS. The experience on Android is quite nice as it will replace your default SMS app and will work similar to Messages on iOS where it will send using data via Signal if the other user is a Signal user or fallback to SMS if they aren't a SMS user. Unfortunately it's not as nice on iOS since Apple apparently doesn't allow Messages to be replaced as the default SMS app.
  - r0muald 10y ago
    Furthermore, if you are registered with username+ password, I think you will want to have a password recovery method as well, so you're back to giving a phone number or an email address to the server.
  - lorenzhs 10y ago
    > when you hit your monthly limit, you want to disable all data. This is country-specific. In Germany, any data usage exceeding your plan is free but terribly slow, usually 64kbit. That's good enough for messaging and checking email (and HN comments).
woah 10y ago
If you really want to be secure, get a disposable prepaid phone and use its phone number with signal.
- MereKatMoves 10y ago
  That is increasingly hard to do these days. Verified addresses etc are now minimum requirements to get the handset. Of course you can pay cash and make up an address
  - geomark 10y ago
    Where I live they make a copy of your ID when you buy a SIM. So you'll also need a fake ID. And then there will be a copy of your fake ID with a photo of you on file somewhere, which could lead to some issues if the authorities discover you used a fake ID.
    - AckSyn 10y ago
      Where I live (USA), it's as simple as walking into a Walmart, pulling a plastic encased kit off the shelf and paying for cash. No muss, no fuss. Just activate it at the on-prem McDonalds and you're golden*.
laretluval 10y ago
Indeed. It's not just crypto nerds would want to use the service without having to have a smartphone with a phone number. The phone requirement is beyond ridiculous. How did Signal get the reputation it enjoys in the tech community anyway?
- CoryG89 10y ago
  > How did Signal get the reputation it enjoys in the tech community anyway? You can thank Edward Snowden for that. In fact, they have his picture and testimonial on their front page: https://whispersystems.org https://whispersystems.org
  - mintplant 10y ago
    moxie, the founder of OWS, was already well-known before Snowden. SSLstrip, for example: https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ and this DEFCON talk where he presents multiple attacks on cert validation: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ibF36Yyeehw https://youtube.com/watch?v=ibF36Yyeehw
- cgag 10y ago
  What's a trustworthy alternative?
  - newscracker 10y ago
    Wire [1], which I've been trying for the past few months, seems so. It's quite rich in its feature set compared to Signal, all messages are E2E encrypted and provides multi-device sync and multi-platform support. [1]: https://wire.com https://wire.com
- walterbell 10y ago
  Wire (http://wire.com http://wire.com) does not need a phone number (register with email on a desktop browser at http://app.wire.com http://app.wire.com, then login to mobile) and does not need a copy of your contacts. Supports text, image, files, audio, video. E2E encryption is based on Signal protocol. Funded by Skype founder.
mbenjaminsmith 10y ago
What's more bothersome: If you withdraw access (after they've already scanned your contacts) they'll disable the app. That's why I deleted the app and won't use it again. If a privacy-focused app makes you nervous about privacy they've already lost the war, haven't they?
- uph 10y ago
  Seems reasonable that an app that's used for messaging my contacts has access to my contacts. What exactly are you nervous about?
  - walterbell 10y ago
    Only a small subset of people will be messaged with the app, it does not need access to the entire address book.
    - uph 10y ago
      They have explained what the permission is needed for http://support.whispersystems.org/hc/en-us/articles/212535858-What-are-all-these-permissions- http://support.whispersystems.org/hc/en-us/articles/21253585... They have a privacy policy https://whispersystems.org/signal/privacy/ https://whispersystems.org/signal/privacy/ They have explained their reasoning https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ You have access to the source https://github.com/WhisperSystems https://github.com/WhisperSystems You have proof that they don't store your contacts and can't provide them even after a subpoena https://whispersystems.org/bigbrother/ https://whispersystems.org/bigbrother/ Again, what exactly are you nervous about? What is gained by removing contact discovery?
      - e1ven 10y ago
        I'm not the poster who you replied to, but - Just because someone explains their reasoning, doesn't mean you have to agree with them :) I don't particularly want to send Signal a list of contacts - I'd rather not leak that information about my social graph. I understand how they want to use that information for discovery, so they can know who already uses the app.. But for my needs, this isn't necessary. I'd prefer to manually ask my friends for their username on the service. If there were additional options, I might choose to use their service. As it is, it doesn't fit my needs, and that's OK. I'm sure there's plenty of other people who appreciate it.

by AckSyn 10y ago

mahyarm 10y ago

The app is open source and you could do something like a proxy or similar if you really want to be sure of what get sent from your client. The server is also open source too. As moxie said, it's about raising the defaults of the world, not about making it secure for the crypto nerd.

throwaway7767 10y ago
> As moxie said, it's about raising the defaults of the world, not about making it secure for the crypto nerd. The thing is, the attacks in the "crypto-nerd paranoia" category tend to become everyday attacks over time. Pre-Snowden, most people would put a lot of the things the NSA is doing into the "crypto-nerd paranoia" bucket. Now we know they were wrong to do so. Signal routes all conversation metadata through one infrastructure, which becomes a very tempting target. By also requiring phone numbers as identity, they make it very easy to tie that metadata to real people and perform graph analysis on it.

mifreewil 10y ago

With the approach that Signal has taken, it doesn't require you to register a username. The app just registers you with the server as a Signal user using your already unique ID - your phone number. While not the most secure and privacy-protecting method, it allows anyone to just install it and start using it as a secure alternative to plaintext SMS.

lqdc13 10y ago
Regarding SMS - it's not always an alternative to SMS since it uses data. I know data is more popular than SMS in many countries, but when you hit your monthly limit, you want to disable all data. Regarding the simplicity of using a phone number and how it would be very easy for all users - Wickr provides basically the same service, is more popular, but uses usernames instead of phone numbers. The fact that something is open source isn't always a clear win. OpenSSL, for example, is open source and yet they seem to have many bugs. For the record, I use Signal almost exclusively for communication. I just wish it was more protective of users' privacy without having to put in a ton of effort.
- mifreewil 10y ago
  Yes, I should clarify what I mean as an alternative to SMS. The experience on Android is quite nice as it will replace your default SMS app and will work similar to Messages on iOS where it will send using data via Signal if the other user is a Signal user or fallback to SMS if they aren't a SMS user. Unfortunately it's not as nice on iOS since Apple apparently doesn't allow Messages to be replaced as the default SMS app.
- r0muald 10y ago
  Furthermore, if you are registered with username+ password, I think you will want to have a password recovery method as well, so you're back to giving a phone number or an email address to the server.
- lorenzhs 10y ago
  > when you hit your monthly limit, you want to disable all data. This is country-specific. In Germany, any data usage exceeding your plan is free but terribly slow, usually 64kbit. That's good enough for messaging and checking email (and HN comments).

woah 10y ago

If you really want to be secure, get a disposable prepaid phone and use its phone number with signal.

MereKatMoves 10y ago
That is increasingly hard to do these days. Verified addresses etc are now minimum requirements to get the handset. Of course you can pay cash and make up an address
- geomark 10y ago
  Where I live they make a copy of your ID when you buy a SIM. So you'll also need a fake ID. And then there will be a copy of your fake ID with a photo of you on file somewhere, which could lead to some issues if the authorities discover you used a fake ID.
  - AckSyn 10y ago
    Where I live (USA), it's as simple as walking into a Walmart, pulling a plastic encased kit off the shelf and paying for cash. No muss, no fuss. Just activate it at the on-prem McDonalds and you're golden*.

laretluval 10y ago

Indeed. It's not just crypto nerds would want to use the service without having to have a smartphone with a phone number. The phone requirement is beyond ridiculous. How did Signal get the reputation it enjoys in the tech community anyway?

CoryG89 10y ago
> How did Signal get the reputation it enjoys in the tech community anyway? You can thank Edward Snowden for that. In fact, they have his picture and testimonial on their front page: https://whispersystems.org https://whispersystems.org
- mintplant 10y ago
  moxie, the founder of OWS, was already well-known before Snowden. SSLstrip, for example: https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ and this DEFCON talk where he presents multiple attacks on cert validation: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ibF36Yyeehw https://youtube.com/watch?v=ibF36Yyeehw
cgag 10y ago
What's a trustworthy alternative?
- newscracker 10y ago
  Wire [1], which I've been trying for the past few months, seems so. It's quite rich in its feature set compared to Signal, all messages are E2E encrypted and provides multi-device sync and multi-platform support. [1]: https://wire.com https://wire.com
walterbell 10y ago
Wire (http://wire.com http://wire.com) does not need a phone number (register with email on a desktop browser at http://app.wire.com http://app.wire.com, then login to mobile) and does not need a copy of your contacts. Supports text, image, files, audio, video. E2E encryption is based on Signal protocol. Funded by Skype founder.

mbenjaminsmith 10y ago

What's more bothersome: If you withdraw access (after they've already scanned your contacts) they'll disable the app. That's why I deleted the app and won't use it again. If a privacy-focused app makes you nervous about privacy they've already lost the war, haven't they?

uph 10y ago
Seems reasonable that an app that's used for messaging my contacts has access to my contacts. What exactly are you nervous about?
- walterbell 10y ago
  Only a small subset of people will be messaged with the app, it does not need access to the entire address book.
  - uph 10y ago
    They have explained what the permission is needed for http://support.whispersystems.org/hc/en-us/articles/212535858-What-are-all-these-permissions- http://support.whispersystems.org/hc/en-us/articles/21253585... They have a privacy policy https://whispersystems.org/signal/privacy/ https://whispersystems.org/signal/privacy/ They have explained their reasoning https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ You have access to the source https://github.com/WhisperSystems https://github.com/WhisperSystems You have proof that they don't store your contacts and can't provide them even after a subpoena https://whispersystems.org/bigbrother/ https://whispersystems.org/bigbrother/ Again, what exactly are you nervous about? What is gained by removing contact discovery?
    - e1ven 10y ago
      I'm not the poster who you replied to, but - Just because someone explains their reasoning, doesn't mean you have to agree with them :) I don't particularly want to send Signal a list of contacts - I'd rather not leak that information about my social graph. I understand how they want to use that information for discovery, so they can know who already uses the app.. But for my needs, this isn't necessary. I'd prefer to manually ask my friends for their username on the service. If there were additional options, I might choose to use their service. As it is, it doesn't fit my needs, and that's OK. I'm sure there's plenty of other people who appreciate it.