4 ms·

There are a lot of assumptions worked into that, with one of the biggest being, "Who needs transcendence? We suspect humans do."

by M_Grey 10y ago

pmoriarty 10y ago
How is that an assumption? It sound to me more like an expression of a conclusion the authors come to, based on the other things the article talks about up to that point (ie. all the evidence they present that humans crave existential meaning).
- M_Grey 10y ago
  You're just shifting the assumption from what I said, to something like, 'transcendence provides humans with the existential meaning they crave.'
jasonkostempski 10y ago
I was thinking more like is transcendence even an actual thing? The Google definition is "existence or experience beyond the normal or physical level." Which in turn needs a definition for "normal" and "physical". Beyond "normal" I can maybe buy into, but beyond "physical", I'm doubting anyone has a convincing example of.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Absolutely, and that goes some way to undermining the notion of its requirement in the lives of humans.
- catawbasam 10y ago
  I had an experience which I found, and still find, utterly convincing. But if I tried to describe it to you, you probably wouldn't be at all swayed. William James writes about this in 'The Varieties of Religious Experience'.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    The same could have been said for Einstein, but the trick was that he could prove it math, and observations. If what you found was real, do you think it could ever find some real expression that's testable? If not, maybe it only felt real, which would make sense if it happened entirely within the realm of your own senses.
    - orasis 10y ago
      What if your assumption that things happen outside "the realm of your own senses" is false? The color blue does not exist outside the realm of our senses. Neither does the concept of a "table".
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        And yet you could establish criteria for both. Blue is defined by specific wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, and a table is an object. Both provide testable predictions, "Light of this wavelength will appear 'blue', and I can bang my shin against this table..." People who have never met can report having the same experiences with both "Blue" and "Table".
        orasis 10y ago
        It's no different with private subjective experience - it's just that most people lack precise language to describe "transcendent" experiences. For example, there are mind states called "jhana" that can be reliably accessed by experienced meditators. The language used to describe them is along the lines of "as piti subsides and suka becomes more prevalent, you are entering the 2nd jhana". We even have language to describe what it's like to experience without an experiencer: In the seeing, only the seen. In the thinking, only the thought...
        M_Grey 10y ago
        None of what you're saying addresses any of what I said, you've just sidestepped it with claims of inexpressibility as well as untestability.
- Jarwain 10y ago
  Would you say a purely mental experience is beyond physical, since there is no physical manifestation of the phenomena or experience, it only exists in a person's mind?
- ktRolster 10y ago
  I was thinking more like is transcendence even an actual thing? Transcendentalism is a philosophy espoused by Emerson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism This article is basically just trying to hilight some good points of that philosophy.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  I think the essay is misnamed. It should have been "Why Should Transcendentalism Be Taught?" or "Is 19th Century Transcendentalism Relevant to us in the 21th Century?" For more on what Transcendentalism is, see: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/transcendentalism/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/transcendentalism/ (with the caveat that the Internet is a pretty poor place to learn philosophy)
- orasis 10y ago
  I experience reality as This present consciousness. I used to experience a "normal", "physical" reality and now my experience is beyond that. If you are curious how such perspectives may evolve, you might find this interesting: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html?m=1 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six...

There are a lot of assumptions worked into that, with one of the biggest being, "Who needs transcendence? We suspect humans do."

by M_Grey 10y ago

There are a lot of assumptions worked into that, with one of the biggest being, "Who needs transcendence? We suspect humans do."

pmoriarty 10y ago

How is that an assumption? It sound to me more like an expression of a conclusion the authors come to, based on the other things the article talks about up to that point (ie. all the evidence they present that humans crave existential meaning).

M_Grey 10y ago
You're just shifting the assumption from what I said, to something like, 'transcendence provides humans with the existential meaning they crave.'

jasonkostempski 10y ago

I was thinking more like is transcendence even an actual thing? The Google definition is "existence or experience beyond the normal or physical level." Which in turn needs a definition for "normal" and "physical". Beyond "normal" I can maybe buy into, but beyond "physical", I'm doubting anyone has a convincing example of.

M_Grey 10y ago
Absolutely, and that goes some way to undermining the notion of its requirement in the lives of humans.
catawbasam 10y ago
I had an experience which I found, and still find, utterly convincing. But if I tried to describe it to you, you probably wouldn't be at all swayed. William James writes about this in 'The Varieties of Religious Experience'.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  The same could have been said for Einstein, but the trick was that he could prove it math, and observations. If what you found was real, do you think it could ever find some real expression that's testable? If not, maybe it only felt real, which would make sense if it happened entirely within the realm of your own senses.
  - orasis 10y ago
    What if your assumption that things happen outside "the realm of your own senses" is false? The color blue does not exist outside the realm of our senses. Neither does the concept of a "table".
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      And yet you could establish criteria for both. Blue is defined by specific wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, and a table is an object. Both provide testable predictions, "Light of this wavelength will appear 'blue', and I can bang my shin against this table..." People who have never met can report having the same experiences with both "Blue" and "Table".
      - orasis 10y ago
        It's no different with private subjective experience - it's just that most people lack precise language to describe "transcendent" experiences. For example, there are mind states called "jhana" that can be reliably accessed by experienced meditators. The language used to describe them is along the lines of "as piti subsides and suka becomes more prevalent, you are entering the 2nd jhana". We even have language to describe what it's like to experience without an experiencer: In the seeing, only the seen. In the thinking, only the thought...
        M_Grey 10y ago
        None of what you're saying addresses any of what I said, you've just sidestepped it with claims of inexpressibility as well as untestability.
Jarwain 10y ago
Would you say a purely mental experience is beyond physical, since there is no physical manifestation of the phenomena or experience, it only exists in a person's mind?
ktRolster 10y ago
I was thinking more like is transcendence even an actual thing? Transcendentalism is a philosophy espoused by Emerson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism This article is basically just trying to hilight some good points of that philosophy.
pmoriarty 10y ago
I think the essay is misnamed. It should have been "Why Should Transcendentalism Be Taught?" or "Is 19th Century Transcendentalism Relevant to us in the 21th Century?" For more on what Transcendentalism is, see: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/transcendentalism/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/transcendentalism/ (with the caveat that the Internet is a pretty poor place to learn philosophy)
orasis 10y ago
I experience reality as This present consciousness. I used to experience a "normal", "physical" reality and now my experience is beyond that. If you are curious how such perspectives may evolve, you might find this interesting: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html?m=1 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six...