4 ms·

Yes exactly, there is nothing "unfortunate" about the implications of those studies. Also thanks for taking the time to statistically prove "Jessica" is a girl'

Yes exactly, there is nothing "unfortunate" about the implications of those studies. Also thanks for taking the time to statistically prove "Jessica" is a girl's name for some reason.

bbctol 10y ago
It's unfortunate if you don't have a white man's name...
- reader5000 10y ago
  I agree, but I don't think it's any more unfortunate than not having a Chinese name in China, Indian name in India, etc. Humans are inherently risk averse, and cultural conformity is an upshot of that. To penalize or otherwise persecute "white males" for having and participating in a culture seems unjust.
  - bbctol 10y ago
    So you're saying we live in a culture that arbitrarily benefits white men, and thus it would be unjust to not arbitrarily benefit them.
    - reader5000 10y ago
      I dont know what you think culture is, but to me culture is just how people generally behave in a particular area, so yes white men generally try to behave in a way that benefits them. Is this wrong?
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    To be clear: you are saying that it is not unjust to penalize women and people of color for no reason other than the fact that they're not white men, but it is unjust to penalize white men to compensate for that.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  I'm a white man and my name is Lyndsy. My experiences thus far strongly suggest that success is not tied to having a male-sounding name.
jakelazaroff 10y ago
Premise: names often signify gender and race Premise: in STEM fields, female- and POC-signifying names receive significantly fewer responses to otherwise identical résumés Conclusion: in the hiring process in STEM fields, people are discriminated against based solely on their perceived gender and race That is the literal definition of sexism and racism. How is that not unfortunate or problematic?
- reader5000 10y ago
  My contention is with your conclusion. My original point was that in addition to gender and race, names signal cultural affiliation. Many Asian immigrants to the West adopt Western first names in order to signal Western cultural affiliation. I would hypothesize they get more resume responses. This plays into gender as well. I might be comfortable with "Jessica" as my accountant but less so with "Envy" or "Desiree" or whatever. The preferences being expressed are not based solely on gender/race as in your conclusion, but rather likelihood to adhere to various cultural norms, some pertaining to direct job-related productivity, and others pertaining to general socialization and fitting in. I see no problem with Western companies expressing preference for Western cultural norms anymore than Chinese companies doing the same (respectively) in China. Another interpretation of the study is simply that the companies historically have had more success with whitemale name hires and are simply using the cheapest predictive signal available to maximize hiring ROI. This is unfair to good hires with off-culture names, but I'm not sure what a fix is. If it makes you feel better I would presume white males are discriminated against in non-Western societies but I have no hard evidence for that, except for maybe South Africa where it's explicit law.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    > I see no problem with Western companies expressing preference for Western cultural norms anymore than Chinese companies doing the same (respectively) in China. Sooooo "female culture" isn't a part of Western cultural norms? Or Black culture? Asian culture? These are all peoples that have been here for hundreds of years. The culture they share is certainly different from that of their home country. When do they get to call their culture "Western?" When white people say it's okay? You don't want to cop to it, but all you're doing is making excuses for white men to discriminate against others. It's not okay.

Yes exactly, there is nothing "unfortunate" about the implications of those studies. Also thanks for taking the time to statistically prove "Jessica" is a girl's name for some reason.

bbctol 10y ago

It's unfortunate if you don't have a white man's name...

reader5000 10y ago
I agree, but I don't think it's any more unfortunate than not having a Chinese name in China, Indian name in India, etc. Humans are inherently risk averse, and cultural conformity is an upshot of that. To penalize or otherwise persecute "white males" for having and participating in a culture seems unjust.
- bbctol 10y ago
  So you're saying we live in a culture that arbitrarily benefits white men, and thus it would be unjust to not arbitrarily benefit them.
  - reader5000 10y ago
    I dont know what you think culture is, but to me culture is just how people generally behave in a particular area, so yes white men generally try to behave in a way that benefits them. Is this wrong?
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  To be clear: you are saying that it is not unjust to penalize women and people of color for no reason other than the fact that they're not white men, but it is unjust to penalize white men to compensate for that.
LyndsySimon 10y ago
I'm a white man and my name is Lyndsy. My experiences thus far strongly suggest that success is not tied to having a male-sounding name.

jakelazaroff 10y ago

Premise: names often signify gender and race Premise: in STEM fields, female- and POC-signifying names receive significantly fewer responses to otherwise identical résumés Conclusion: in the hiring process in STEM fields, people are discriminated against based solely on their perceived gender and race That is the literal definition of sexism and racism. How is that not unfortunate or problematic?

reader5000 10y ago
My contention is with your conclusion. My original point was that in addition to gender and race, names signal cultural affiliation. Many Asian immigrants to the West adopt Western first names in order to signal Western cultural affiliation. I would hypothesize they get more resume responses. This plays into gender as well. I might be comfortable with "Jessica" as my accountant but less so with "Envy" or "Desiree" or whatever. The preferences being expressed are not based solely on gender/race as in your conclusion, but rather likelihood to adhere to various cultural norms, some pertaining to direct job-related productivity, and others pertaining to general socialization and fitting in. I see no problem with Western companies expressing preference for Western cultural norms anymore than Chinese companies doing the same (respectively) in China. Another interpretation of the study is simply that the companies historically have had more success with whitemale name hires and are simply using the cheapest predictive signal available to maximize hiring ROI. This is unfair to good hires with off-culture names, but I'm not sure what a fix is. If it makes you feel better I would presume white males are discriminated against in non-Western societies but I have no hard evidence for that, except for maybe South Africa where it's explicit law.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  > I see no problem with Western companies expressing preference for Western cultural norms anymore than Chinese companies doing the same (respectively) in China. Sooooo "female culture" isn't a part of Western cultural norms? Or Black culture? Asian culture? These are all peoples that have been here for hundreds of years. The culture they share is certainly different from that of their home country. When do they get to call their culture "Western?" When white people say it's okay? You don't want to cop to it, but all you're doing is making excuses for white men to discriminate against others. It's not okay.