5 ms·

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how

by Typhon 10y ago

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

imagist 10y ago
15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US. It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.
- Typhon 10y ago
  Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib. Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.
  - imagist 10y ago
    Yeah, agreed, Viet Nam is more clear-cut because history has given time for the politicization to settle down. But Iraq is more relatable (or in the words of the OP title, "Fathomable").
  - vacri 10y ago
    The US military learned its lesson in Vietnam: don't let the media see what you're doing. We'll simply never know how US soldiers behaved in Iraq as compared to Vietnam.
    - Grangar 10y ago
      Sure we do: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinating_on_Taliban_fighters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinatin... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp (not all are Iraq, but you get the picture)
      - imagist 10y ago
        Yes, these exist, but a few notable stories that broke are little compared to the relentless onslaught of news from Viet Nam during the war there. It was the first time that TV news from a warzone was readily available, and footage of the fighting was still shocking to people, so it attracted viewers. As a result, new footage from Viet Nam was aired every day for literally years. The modern military recognizes the need for PR. Abu Ghraib was mostly still pictures because it was mostly leaks--press was allowed nowhere near the place. Contrast this with videos of Hussein's statue being pulled down or the "Mission Accomplished" press conference If you cherry-pick specific instances, sure, there was negative coverage of the Iraq War, but the big picture of Iraq War coverage versus Viet Nam War coverage is very different.
nostromo 10y ago
Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was. http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...
- randyrand 10y ago
  1946 - 2013 likely too small of a sample, IMO. There were peaceful times throughout history, and they were followed by very bloody times. e.g. If, say, bloodshed follows a sine wave, we should at least wait for a couple periods before any proclamation that we've reduced bloodshed.
  - vacri 10y ago
    The peaceful times also generally don't make the history books.
  - tnecniv 10y ago
    What's interesting is that, during the roughly 40 years between German & Italian unification and WWI, it was one of the most peaceful times in history for Western Europe. Yes, there were wars, but they were mostly small conflicts in far away lands. However, if you look at many of the great thinkers from the era (its been a while since I studied the period, but Lord Kelvin jumps to mind first), they are extremely pessimistic and think the end of days is soon approaching.
pif 10y ago
In your examples, it's about (many) individuals who chose to do bad things together. The article is talking about cultural violence, in the sense that a whole nation was behind it. I see it more comparable to "circus" games in Colosseo, or legally approved slavery, wherever and whenever it happened, rather than to Nazis or ISIS.
- Typhon 10y ago
  I disagree completely with you on this. Nazi violence was just as much a product of culture and social forces than Aztec violence, it's merely much closer to home and we know a lot more about it. I think this 'outlier excuse' works when talking about serial killers or even criminal gangs, but I'm talking about violence on a much bigger scale, a scale where cultural factors are always contributing.

by Typhon 10y ago

imagist 10y ago

15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US. It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.

Typhon 10y ago
Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib. Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.
- imagist 10y ago
  Yeah, agreed, Viet Nam is more clear-cut because history has given time for the politicization to settle down. But Iraq is more relatable (or in the words of the OP title, "Fathomable").
- vacri 10y ago
  The US military learned its lesson in Vietnam: don't let the media see what you're doing. We'll simply never know how US soldiers behaved in Iraq as compared to Vietnam.
  - Grangar 10y ago
    Sure we do: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinating_on_Taliban_fighters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinatin... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp (not all are Iraq, but you get the picture)
    - imagist 10y ago
      Yes, these exist, but a few notable stories that broke are little compared to the relentless onslaught of news from Viet Nam during the war there. It was the first time that TV news from a warzone was readily available, and footage of the fighting was still shocking to people, so it attracted viewers. As a result, new footage from Viet Nam was aired every day for literally years. The modern military recognizes the need for PR. Abu Ghraib was mostly still pictures because it was mostly leaks--press was allowed nowhere near the place. Contrast this with videos of Hussein's statue being pulled down or the "Mission Accomplished" press conference If you cherry-pick specific instances, sure, there was negative coverage of the Iraq War, but the big picture of Iraq War coverage versus Viet Nam War coverage is very different.

nostromo 10y ago

Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was. http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

randyrand 10y ago
1946 - 2013 likely too small of a sample, IMO. There were peaceful times throughout history, and they were followed by very bloody times. e.g. If, say, bloodshed follows a sine wave, we should at least wait for a couple periods before any proclamation that we've reduced bloodshed.
- vacri 10y ago
  The peaceful times also generally don't make the history books.
- tnecniv 10y ago
  What's interesting is that, during the roughly 40 years between German & Italian unification and WWI, it was one of the most peaceful times in history for Western Europe. Yes, there were wars, but they were mostly small conflicts in far away lands. However, if you look at many of the great thinkers from the era (its been a while since I studied the period, but Lord Kelvin jumps to mind first), they are extremely pessimistic and think the end of days is soon approaching.

pif 10y ago

In your examples, it's about (many) individuals who chose to do bad things together. The article is talking about cultural violence, in the sense that a whole nation was behind it. I see it more comparable to "circus" games in Colosseo, or legally approved slavery, wherever and whenever it happened, rather than to Nazis or ISIS.

Typhon 10y ago
I disagree completely with you on this. Nazi violence was just as much a product of culture and social forces than Aztec violence, it's merely much closer to home and we know a lot more about it. I think this 'outlier excuse' works when talking about serial killers or even criminal gangs, but I'm talking about violence on a much bigger scale, a scale where cultural factors are always contributing.