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This is not a problem with the package manager. This is a problem with complexity. When did it start becoming reasonable for a front-end only part of the MVCC

This is not a problem with the package manager. This is a problem with complexity. When did it start becoming reasonable for a front-end only part of the MVCC pattern to have 68 dependencies? Or for a transpiler like Babel to add 100k+ files? I'm sorry I just find it ridiculous that instead of taking a look at the disease (unbounded complexity), we are looking to engineer our way out of the problem by creating a package/dependency manager that "scales". Are the frontend problems at Facebook of showing HTML forms and buttons on a page really that complicated to warrant such a behemoth of a system? This harkons back to the days at LinkedIn where I spent my time in a misguided effort to create a distributed build system because our codebase had grown so massive that it literally took a distributed system to build it and still release within the day. I feel bad for people working on these systems because while it is fun and "technically interesting" to solve "problems at scale", you're really just digging the ditch deeper for your company. You are putting lipstick on the 500 lbs pig; making room in the dump to pour in more technical debt. I don't think anyone ever imagined we'd be in a situation where a javascript framework is approaching the complexity of an operating system in terms of individual source files and SLOC. Just boggles my mind.

deleted 10y ago
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daveidol 10y ago
Have you seen some of the things we are building for the web these days? Full applications, with multiple "pages", server-side rendering above the fold content, minified builds that load not only content--but code as well--on demand from the server, etc. Absolutely: this is overkill for your blog or portfolio website, but part of the rising complexity with the tooling and dependency system is due to the rising complexity of the applications themselves.
callumlocke 10y ago
What is your proposed cure for the disease?
dwaltrip 10y ago
The Javascript ecosystem has to deal with unrelenting, multi-decade backwards compatibility requirements; supporting numerous, inconsistent implementations; and an incredibly wide set of stakeholders and participants with diverse motivations when advancing the spec. Do any other software platforms out there face the same magnitude of complications? To speak to one of your primary examples: Babel is freaking huge and somewhat absurd, but is there any other way to advance the Javascript language? Fortunately, this is only a development dependency, and the client doesn't have to see it. On a happier note, these are good problems to have. This is another indicator of how successful the web platform has become. You can build some absolutely incredible projects these days, and they are instantly available to billions of people who are operating thousands of different hardware devices (with different specs and dimensions) running dozens of operating systems. No gatekeeper, bureaucrat, or corporate curator must approve your work. Just simply deploy it, and anyone with the URL can access it. It is a mind-blowing human accomplishment. I look forward to seeing how the web continues to progress over the coming decades.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

daveidol 10y ago

Have you seen some of the things we are building for the web these days? Full applications, with multiple "pages", server-side rendering above the fold content, minified builds that load not only content--but code as well--on demand from the server, etc. Absolutely: this is overkill for your blog or portfolio website, but part of the rising complexity with the tooling and dependency system is due to the rising complexity of the applications themselves.

callumlocke 10y ago

What is your proposed cure for the disease?

dwaltrip 10y ago

The Javascript ecosystem has to deal with unrelenting, multi-decade backwards compatibility requirements; supporting numerous, inconsistent implementations; and an incredibly wide set of stakeholders and participants with diverse motivations when advancing the spec. Do any other software platforms out there face the same magnitude of complications? To speak to one of your primary examples: Babel is freaking huge and somewhat absurd, but is there any other way to advance the Javascript language? Fortunately, this is only a development dependency, and the client doesn't have to see it. On a happier note, these are good problems to have. This is another indicator of how successful the web platform has become. You can build some absolutely incredible projects these days, and they are instantly available to billions of people who are operating thousands of different hardware devices (with different specs and dimensions) running dozens of operating systems. No gatekeeper, bureaucrat, or corporate curator must approve your work. Just simply deploy it, and anyone with the URL can access it. It is a mind-blowing human accomplishment. I look forward to seeing how the web continues to progress over the coming decades.