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I hate this analogy. Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?)

I hate this analogy. Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?) but it also fails to take into account the massive technological shifts that have taken place. We can send probes to Mars, we are able to run mass spectrometry on it, we can analyze and monitor it from affair. The only reason to go there is hubris.

witty_username 10y ago
I think GP is saying the explorers "discovered" it from their perspective. But otherwise, I agree, we already know tons about Mars.
oldmanjay 10y ago
You say hubris, I say practice.
AndrewKemendo 10y ago
Second this wholeheartedly. The "explorers" did not have the ability to observe to any real degree the rest of the world before setting out. Not only that, but it wasn't just exploration it was expansion.
noobiemcfoob 10y ago
Robots are great for running pre-planned experiments, but they're limiting. There are many experiments that the research community would love to perform but would necessarily require a human presence.
TaylorAlexander 10y ago
Hmm. I'd like to understand this, but I have questions. I've imagined that we could do a lot more science with a human and some basic instruments than we could with a billion dollar Rover sent every ten years. I mean, just to sample a rock probably takes a week. A geologist on site could do that in an hour. Historically, when we can do something much faster we tend to do things with that we didn't do when it was very slow. For example when it took months to cross the country, it was a once in a lifetime thing for some and most never did it. Now we do it all the time, and generations of West Coast students have seen the Smithsonian. I think that there will be more value in sending humans to Mars than just hubris. I think we will learn a lot more about our cosmic origins, about the value of life and our healthy planet, and about ourselves as a species and culture. In fact, I think sending man to Mars is a key factor in getting us to appreciate this planet and the destruction we're causing here. I don't think Musk's end goal is to leave Earth, but to save it by making us value it again. Perhaps, on this scale, for the first time. To me, that's a lot more than just hubris. What do you think of all that?
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  On what basis do you justify this belief? Did we learn significantly more "about our cosmic origins, about the value of life and our healthy planet, and about ourselves as a species and culture" from our manned exploration of the Moon, than we could have from probes? AFAIK the primary things we learned were encapsulated by the 10 items NASA listed [1]. Which is great for the moon, but doesn't really give us much to work with here. [1]https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lunar10.cfm https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lunar10.cfm
  - TaylorAlexander 10y ago
    Well, that is an interesting list of geological things we learned, but we also learned a lot about ourselves. For example, we learned that it is possible for humans to design a system that can carry people to the moon and return them safely to the Earth. Before we did that, no one knew if that was true. We learned about the Overview Effect, which astronauts say changed their view on humanity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect Some people say that the environmental protection movement was started on Earth after people saw what it looked like from a distance. And while those images could be captured by robotic cameras, I can easily imagine that it helped having actual live humans get to experience that and share what they felt. We can relate to people much more than we can relate to a robot. I don't expect you to agree with me. But I think it is significant for actual humans to go out and do these things. It is more inspiring to people here on Earth. And I think that inspiration is valuable and produced tangible benefits on Earth.
    - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
      And I think that inspiration is valuable and produced tangible benefits on Earth. Agree, that inspiration is important. However I seriously doubt that manned space exploration has the ability to impact humanity in the same way, and in as quick of a timeline that AGI and Transhumanism do - which is where I'd rather see people find inspiration.
      - 10y ago
macspoofing 10y ago
>Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?) Calm yourself. It's a statement that is clearly from the perspective of Europeans. And it was an accomplishment worthy of remembrance since it required a combination of a certain level of technological advancement and courage. It is also a huge milestone in the history of mankind.
- yolesaber 10y ago
  >And it was an accomplishment worthy of remembrance since it required a combination of a certain level of technological advancement and courage. There is evidence that Polynesians made it to the "new world" long before Europeans (http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/polynesian-seafarers-discovered-america-long-before http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/storie...). And even in the case of Europenas, they were able to do it with the technology invented in 10th/11th centuries e.g. Leif Erickson's voyage. It was just that the political and economic climes were not optimal for them to sail West until centuries later. The notion of the progress and advancement inherent to Europeans as "discovers" is propaganda. We celebrate it because they killed most of the people who were there first and got claim it all for themselves.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    The truth I think is not good or bad or neither, it is both good and bad at the same time. While the USA has had a mixed legacy of death, destruction, and violence we also have a legacy of freedom, love, and peace. The hope is that we acknowledge both today and choose to follow a path of peace, not of evil.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    Well that's sort of the point, isn't it? For whatever moral judgment you wish to levy on those dead and gone, European culture of the time led into what became the dominant culture on the planet. The colonization of the "new world" was indeed a milestone on that journey.
  - 10y ago
fail2fail2ban 10y ago
> I hate this analogy. Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?) Thanks, agreed. On the last part though, it doesn't hurt to explore, a lot can be learned in the process alone, outside of actually finding anything.
- yolesaber 10y ago
  I agree it doesn't hurt to explore, but we have vast technological means to do so now remotely from our lovely planet Earth. We have a rover that climbs over terrain, never has to sleep or eat, and can do mass spectrometry. The need to insert humans on Mars is arrogance.
  - fail2fail2ban 10y ago
    I don't see us living there for extended missions either. I do see the importance of what we learned and the inventions that came out of the Moon missions that have positively impacted our lives on this rock. The journey thing. What I don't get, at all, to this day, is why...we still don't have a Moon base.

witty_username 10y ago

I think GP is saying the explorers "discovered" it from their perspective. But otherwise, I agree, we already know tons about Mars.

oldmanjay 10y ago

You say hubris, I say practice.

AndrewKemendo 10y ago

Second this wholeheartedly. The "explorers" did not have the ability to observe to any real degree the rest of the world before setting out. Not only that, but it wasn't just exploration it was expansion.

noobiemcfoob 10y ago

Robots are great for running pre-planned experiments, but they're limiting. There are many experiments that the research community would love to perform but would necessarily require a human presence.

TaylorAlexander 10y ago

Hmm. I'd like to understand this, but I have questions. I've imagined that we could do a lot more science with a human and some basic instruments than we could with a billion dollar Rover sent every ten years. I mean, just to sample a rock probably takes a week. A geologist on site could do that in an hour. Historically, when we can do something much faster we tend to do things with that we didn't do when it was very slow. For example when it took months to cross the country, it was a once in a lifetime thing for some and most never did it. Now we do it all the time, and generations of West Coast students have seen the Smithsonian. I think that there will be more value in sending humans to Mars than just hubris. I think we will learn a lot more about our cosmic origins, about the value of life and our healthy planet, and about ourselves as a species and culture. In fact, I think sending man to Mars is a key factor in getting us to appreciate this planet and the destruction we're causing here. I don't think Musk's end goal is to leave Earth, but to save it by making us value it again. Perhaps, on this scale, for the first time. To me, that's a lot more than just hubris. What do you think of all that?

AndrewKemendo 10y ago
On what basis do you justify this belief? Did we learn significantly more "about our cosmic origins, about the value of life and our healthy planet, and about ourselves as a species and culture" from our manned exploration of the Moon, than we could have from probes? AFAIK the primary things we learned were encapsulated by the 10 items NASA listed [1]. Which is great for the moon, but doesn't really give us much to work with here. [1]https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lunar10.cfm https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lunar10.cfm
- TaylorAlexander 10y ago
  Well, that is an interesting list of geological things we learned, but we also learned a lot about ourselves. For example, we learned that it is possible for humans to design a system that can carry people to the moon and return them safely to the Earth. Before we did that, no one knew if that was true. We learned about the Overview Effect, which astronauts say changed their view on humanity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect Some people say that the environmental protection movement was started on Earth after people saw what it looked like from a distance. And while those images could be captured by robotic cameras, I can easily imagine that it helped having actual live humans get to experience that and share what they felt. We can relate to people much more than we can relate to a robot. I don't expect you to agree with me. But I think it is significant for actual humans to go out and do these things. It is more inspiring to people here on Earth. And I think that inspiration is valuable and produced tangible benefits on Earth.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    And I think that inspiration is valuable and produced tangible benefits on Earth. Agree, that inspiration is important. However I seriously doubt that manned space exploration has the ability to impact humanity in the same way, and in as quick of a timeline that AGI and Transhumanism do - which is where I'd rather see people find inspiration.
    - 10y ago

macspoofing 10y ago

>Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?) Calm yourself. It's a statement that is clearly from the perspective of Europeans. And it was an accomplishment worthy of remembrance since it required a combination of a certain level of technological advancement and courage. It is also a huge milestone in the history of mankind.

yolesaber 10y ago
>And it was an accomplishment worthy of remembrance since it required a combination of a certain level of technological advancement and courage. There is evidence that Polynesians made it to the "new world" long before Europeans (http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/polynesian-seafarers-discovered-america-long-before http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/storie...). And even in the case of Europenas, they were able to do it with the technology invented in 10th/11th centuries e.g. Leif Erickson's voyage. It was just that the political and economic climes were not optimal for them to sail West until centuries later. The notion of the progress and advancement inherent to Europeans as "discovers" is propaganda. We celebrate it because they killed most of the people who were there first and got claim it all for themselves.
- noobermin 10y ago
  The truth I think is not good or bad or neither, it is both good and bad at the same time. While the USA has had a mixed legacy of death, destruction, and violence we also have a legacy of freedom, love, and peace. The hope is that we acknowledge both today and choose to follow a path of peace, not of evil.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  Well that's sort of the point, isn't it? For whatever moral judgment you wish to levy on those dead and gone, European culture of the time led into what became the dominant culture on the planet. The colonization of the "new world" was indeed a milestone on that journey.
- 10y ago

fail2fail2ban 10y ago

> I hate this analogy. Not only does it enforce the bullshit teleology of the White European as "discoverer" (you know people inhabited these continents, right?) Thanks, agreed. On the last part though, it doesn't hurt to explore, a lot can be learned in the process alone, outside of actually finding anything.

yolesaber 10y ago
I agree it doesn't hurt to explore, but we have vast technological means to do so now remotely from our lovely planet Earth. We have a rover that climbs over terrain, never has to sleep or eat, and can do mass spectrometry. The need to insert humans on Mars is arrogance.
- fail2fail2ban 10y ago
  I don't see us living there for extended missions either. I do see the importance of what we learned and the inventions that came out of the Moon missions that have positively impacted our lives on this rock. The journey thing. What I don't get, at all, to this day, is why...we still don't have a Moon base.