4 ms·

Not one mention in the article about the impact of trucks vs. cars on road wear and tear. The road damage from one 18-wheeler is equivalent to the damage by 96

Not one mention in the article about the impact of trucks vs. cars on road wear and tear. The road damage from one 18-wheeler is equivalent to the damage by 9600 cars [1]. If you want to be serious about recouping the cost of transportation on road infrastructure, you have to tie the tax to the weight of the vehicle. But that would increase the cost of goods a fair amount due to the added transportation costs, so it's not popular. [1] http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
brianwawok 10y ago
Is road damage from vehicles the main cause for road maintenance? In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. I suspect deserts have something similar going on with hot summer days. There are roads I know of that almost never see a car (say a few a month, weird dead-end roads).. and they wear down just as fast as main streets.
- kazinator 10y ago
  One confounding problem in that observation is that weird dead-end roads may simply not be built as well as major arteries.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Also true. In this case the road I am thinking of is almost a highway (4 lanes, wide median, fast speed limit).. and the short dead end roads were built to connect to another busy road - but never finished. Sort of ended up as 20 feet of highway and then a grass field. So in this case, the assumption is that the road was built to the same spec (and on the surface it appears identical).
  - pif 10y ago
    I agree. Please read my reply to the parent.
- justin66 10y ago
  > In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. On the other hand, the passenger lanes on freeways (where long-haul trucks generally cruise) sure wear out faster. I think it's more that freeze/thaw and snow plows exacerbate and accelerate ongoing wear and tear.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Or the Chicago streets around bus stops are often warped and wavey.. whereas the lane away from the bus stop is flat. So obviously heavy things can do damage.. but roads do wear out even if they just sit.
  - pimlottc 10y ago
    > the passenger lanes on freeways (where long-haul trucks generally cruise) I'm not sure which lanes you mean by that. Or did you mean to say "passing lanes"?
    - justin66 10y ago
      It's entirely possible I used the wrong terminology, I'm talking about the "right" lane, the one next to the passing lane on a divided highway. You'll very often find that if the surface of the road is old at all, that lane (where the heavy long-haul trucks tend to travel most) is more worn. In the parts of the midwest that get a lot of snow, it's very noticeable.
- reallydontask 10y ago
  I guess it depends on the weather. I do get the feeling that roads are in worse condition here (Northern England) than they were back home (Southern Spain) but it's just that a feeling, on the surface it makes sense but not sure how accurate it is, nor indeed how comparable the state of the roads on both countries
- falcolas 10y ago
  Poorly built roads will do this, yes. However roads with proper and deep foundations will crack very little due to frost heaves and other assorted phenomenon. The difference is night and day when going between my hometown in Montana and a similarly sized city in Iowa. Our asphalt roads are well kept and maintained, but the roads in Iowa are a buckled nightmare.
- pif 10y ago
  > Is road damage from vehicles the main cause for road maintenance? In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. Both of them. Where I live, in a mountain region in France, temporary restrictions are put in place during a handful of days between the last winter cold and the first spring sun: heavy vehicles are forbidden to go over smaller roads, as the ongoing defrosting is a weakening factor and not every road is as though as a motorway.
  - knz 10y ago
    This is also common in the US (at least in Minnesota).
refurb 10y ago
That's already being done.[1] I have no idea if all the costs are recouped, but the heavier the vehicle the higher the registration fee. [1]https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/reg_hdbk/ch3/ch3_13 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_...
- mdorazio 10y ago
  Yes, but not at nearly the right levels to actually be proportional to the road damage caused. Here's a chart of actual registration fees in NY, for example [1]. If we were actually charging fees corresponding to weight-induced damage, an 18,000 pound truck would have a registration fee in the thousands of dollars, not the <$300 it actually is. [1] https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/commercial-vehicle-registration-fees-vehicle-use-taxes-and-supplemental-fees https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/commercial-vehicle-registrat...
  - Someone 10y ago
    If you really want to tax damage caused, you have to measure distance driven over public roads, and to be really precise, also the load of the vehicle (empty trucks aren't as bad for the road as fully loaded ones), and the way the truck is driven (aggressive acceleration and deceleration damages roads more) I guess that would make the fee for trucks even higher, as trucks generally make more miles than private cars.
kps 10y ago
If you tax/toll on per-axle weight, trucks will add axles, reducing road wear.
pkulak 10y ago
18-wheelers tend to use a lot more gas than light cars. Plus, they use diesel, which I believe is taxed higher than petrol.
SilasX 10y ago
> But that would increase the cost of goods a fair amount due to the added transportation costs, so it's not popular. Yeah, I've never understood that policy logic. The price has to be paid somehow. Why not do it in a way that shows up in the price of goods, to the extent that they are responsible for the cost, so that people (like in any other sane market) have an incentive to cut back on those goods? It's kind of confused to oppose a tax restructuring that penalizes road impact "because it increases the cost of goods". Goods that require more resources should show up as more expensive! That's how economization works! You're not saving anything by distributing the cost to everyone! I can certainly understand why the beneficiaries of a subsidy don't like losing it, but that should fall in the category of "aww, but we invested so much in infra to dig holes and re-fill them". Sure, maybe subsidize the retooling so it's not a big shock, but ffs, don't keep the policy!
- shalmanese 10y ago
  Taxation, as aptly expressed by Terry Pratchett, is about getting the maximum amount of milk with the minimum amount of moo. Highly visible taxes that affect consumers directly are politically very unpopular compared to diffuse taxes that occur higher up the production chain.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

brianwawok 10y ago

Is road damage from vehicles the main cause for road maintenance? In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. I suspect deserts have something similar going on with hot summer days. There are roads I know of that almost never see a car (say a few a month, weird dead-end roads).. and they wear down just as fast as main streets.

kazinator 10y ago
One confounding problem in that observation is that weird dead-end roads may simply not be built as well as major arteries.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Also true. In this case the road I am thinking of is almost a highway (4 lanes, wide median, fast speed limit).. and the short dead end roads were built to connect to another busy road - but never finished. Sort of ended up as 20 feet of highway and then a grass field. So in this case, the assumption is that the road was built to the same spec (and on the surface it appears identical).
- pif 10y ago
  I agree. Please read my reply to the parent.
justin66 10y ago
> In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. On the other hand, the passenger lanes on freeways (where long-haul trucks generally cruise) sure wear out faster. I think it's more that freeze/thaw and snow plows exacerbate and accelerate ongoing wear and tear.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Or the Chicago streets around bus stops are often warped and wavey.. whereas the lane away from the bus stop is flat. So obviously heavy things can do damage.. but roads do wear out even if they just sit.
- pimlottc 10y ago
  > the passenger lanes on freeways (where long-haul trucks generally cruise) I'm not sure which lanes you mean by that. Or did you mean to say "passing lanes"?
  - justin66 10y ago
    It's entirely possible I used the wrong terminology, I'm talking about the "right" lane, the one next to the passing lane on a divided highway. You'll very often find that if the surface of the road is old at all, that lane (where the heavy long-haul trucks tend to travel most) is more worn. In the parts of the midwest that get a lot of snow, it's very noticeable.
reallydontask 10y ago
I guess it depends on the weather. I do get the feeling that roads are in worse condition here (Northern England) than they were back home (Southern Spain) but it's just that a feeling, on the surface it makes sense but not sure how accurate it is, nor indeed how comparable the state of the roads on both countries
falcolas 10y ago
Poorly built roads will do this, yes. However roads with proper and deep foundations will crack very little due to frost heaves and other assorted phenomenon. The difference is night and day when going between my hometown in Montana and a similarly sized city in Iowa. Our asphalt roads are well kept and maintained, but the roads in Iowa are a buckled nightmare.
pif 10y ago
> Is road damage from vehicles the main cause for road maintenance? In the midwest, I am 90% sure that the reason roads break apart is the freeze and thaw cycles in winter. Both of them. Where I live, in a mountain region in France, temporary restrictions are put in place during a handful of days between the last winter cold and the first spring sun: heavy vehicles are forbidden to go over smaller roads, as the ongoing defrosting is a weakening factor and not every road is as though as a motorway.
- knz 10y ago
  This is also common in the US (at least in Minnesota).

refurb 10y ago

That's already being done.[1] I have no idea if all the costs are recouped, but the heavier the vehicle the higher the registration fee. [1]https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/reg_hdbk/ch3/ch3_13 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_...

mdorazio 10y ago
Yes, but not at nearly the right levels to actually be proportional to the road damage caused. Here's a chart of actual registration fees in NY, for example [1]. If we were actually charging fees corresponding to weight-induced damage, an 18,000 pound truck would have a registration fee in the thousands of dollars, not the <$300 it actually is. [1] https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/commercial-vehicle-registration-fees-vehicle-use-taxes-and-supplemental-fees https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/commercial-vehicle-registrat...
- Someone 10y ago
  If you really want to tax damage caused, you have to measure distance driven over public roads, and to be really precise, also the load of the vehicle (empty trucks aren't as bad for the road as fully loaded ones), and the way the truck is driven (aggressive acceleration and deceleration damages roads more) I guess that would make the fee for trucks even higher, as trucks generally make more miles than private cars.

kps 10y ago

If you tax/toll on per-axle weight, trucks will add axles, reducing road wear.

pkulak 10y ago

18-wheelers tend to use a lot more gas than light cars. Plus, they use diesel, which I believe is taxed higher than petrol.

SilasX 10y ago

> But that would increase the cost of goods a fair amount due to the added transportation costs, so it's not popular. Yeah, I've never understood that policy logic. The price has to be paid somehow. Why not do it in a way that shows up in the price of goods, to the extent that they are responsible for the cost, so that people (like in any other sane market) have an incentive to cut back on those goods? It's kind of confused to oppose a tax restructuring that penalizes road impact "because it increases the cost of goods". Goods that require more resources should show up as more expensive! That's how economization works! You're not saving anything by distributing the cost to everyone! I can certainly understand why the beneficiaries of a subsidy don't like losing it, but that should fall in the category of "aww, but we invested so much in infra to dig holes and re-fill them". Sure, maybe subsidize the retooling so it's not a big shock, but ffs, don't keep the policy!

shalmanese 10y ago
Taxation, as aptly expressed by Terry Pratchett, is about getting the maximum amount of milk with the minimum amount of moo. Highly visible taxes that affect consumers directly are politically very unpopular compared to diffuse taxes that occur higher up the production chain.