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Carthage is much closer to western culture yet still earns its share of WTFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sacrifice https://en.wiki

by VLM 10y ago

Carthage is much closer to western culture yet still earns its share of WTFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sacrifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sac...

XparXnoiAx 10y ago
Most cultures of the world had some form of human sacrifice in their past history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice It's kind of a strange aspect of humanity.
pipio21 10y ago
Well, we abort children legally, so it is not like we have improved so much. In Spain and other countries it is legal to abort creatures that would live if taken out of the womb. We rationalize it, because the mother will not be able to give a good life to her child or whatever. What makes us think that people from Carthage could not also rationalize with more powerful reasons than us? It was way harder to live back them than today. PS:Most of what we know of Carthage comes from their competing beliefs, like Jews, because Cartage was totally destroyed, in the same way the Jews portray a picture of Babel totally distorted.
- mhurron 10y ago
  > we abort children legally No we do not, that is illegal because murder is illegal. It is not a child until it is born.
  - dismantlethesun 10y ago
    https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-heading https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-... Indiana General Assembly, House Bill 1337 > Requires physicians to provide information about perinatal hospice care to a pregnant woman who is considering an abortion because the unborn child has been diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly. The terminology of referring to the unborn as children has a long legal history. There's a similar history concerning how personhood is determined via paperwork: i.e. if you do not fill out the paperwork for an abortion, the unborn child is considered a person for cases of its death---such as if a pregnant woman is killed, it's considered a double homicide.
    - mercutio2 10y ago
      You're posting a link to anti-abortion propaganda from the 2016 Indiana Assembly as an argument for why those of us who strenuously disagree that fetuses deserve the legal rights of children should agree with calling fetuses children? The Indiana Assembly is certainly an authority on one thing: legislating clever ways to restrict women's right to obtain an abortion. I don't consider them authorities on much else.
      - dismantlethesun 10y ago
        Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize your 'we' only referred you personally and anyone who agreed with your conclusions. I had thought you meant a more general and inclusive 'we'.
- 08-15 10y ago
  > Well, we abort children legally Fetuses. A fetus is not a child. I don't care about your opinion, but I do care about precise use of language.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    The language nitpicking seems like a grand way to miss the point being made and rather poetically make the exact same point at the same time.
    - mercutio2 10y ago
      Likening abortion to infanticide is akin to equating copyright violation with theft of tangible property. It's an evocative analogy, but it seems like a deliberate category error to many. Of course, I think safe inexpensive abortion is a great societal good, not a mild civil crime worthy of a hint of disapproval, so my analogy doesn't really hold up very well.
    - 08-15 10y ago
      The point being made is "I think a fetus is valuable." I get that. Duh. But even if everyone agreed, a fetus is still a different thing than a child. Believe it or not, there is hardly any disagreement about whether "abortion" of children should be legal. Saying one thing while meaning another doesn't make the point, it obscures it.
emodendroket 10y ago
IMO a lot or even most child sacrifice (especially infant sacrifice) in the ancient world can be understood as ritualizing the process of killing children one does not have the means to raise.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  ...and a culture centered on humanism might group infanticide with medical procedures like appendectomies.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    I don't follow.
    - flubert 10y ago
      Abortion.
      - emodendroket 10y ago
        Oh. Well, whether the ancients would have made a distinction or not they didn't have the means to do it safely or reliably.
        makomk 10y ago
        I've seen it suggested that abortifacients of various kinds and effectivenesses were pretty widely known and used, actually. The Catholic Church and cultures influenced by it may well be the odd ones out here.
        emodendroket 10y ago
        The "safely" and "reliably" qualifiers are important here. Consider this text from the WP article about the history of abortion: > Soranus, a 2nd-century Greek physician, prescribed diuretics, emmenagogues, enemas, fasting, and bloodletting as safe abortion methods, although he advised against the use of sharp instruments to induce miscarriage, due to the risk of organ perforation. He also advised women wishing to abort their pregnancies to engage in energetic walking, carrying heavy objects, riding animals, and jumping so that the woman's heels were to touch her buttocks with each jump, which he described as the "Lacedaemonian Leap." I don't think people prescribing "energetic walking" and bloodletting have really figured this out.

by VLM 10y ago

XparXnoiAx 10y ago

Most cultures of the world had some form of human sacrifice in their past history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice It's kind of a strange aspect of humanity.

pipio21 10y ago

Well, we abort children legally, so it is not like we have improved so much. In Spain and other countries it is legal to abort creatures that would live if taken out of the womb. We rationalize it, because the mother will not be able to give a good life to her child or whatever. What makes us think that people from Carthage could not also rationalize with more powerful reasons than us? It was way harder to live back them than today. PS:Most of what we know of Carthage comes from their competing beliefs, like Jews, because Cartage was totally destroyed, in the same way the Jews portray a picture of Babel totally distorted.

mhurron 10y ago
> we abort children legally No we do not, that is illegal because murder is illegal. It is not a child until it is born.
- dismantlethesun 10y ago
  https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-heading https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-... Indiana General Assembly, House Bill 1337 > Requires physicians to provide information about perinatal hospice care to a pregnant woman who is considering an abortion because the unborn child has been diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly. The terminology of referring to the unborn as children has a long legal history. There's a similar history concerning how personhood is determined via paperwork: i.e. if you do not fill out the paperwork for an abortion, the unborn child is considered a person for cases of its death---such as if a pregnant woman is killed, it's considered a double homicide.
  - mercutio2 10y ago
    You're posting a link to anti-abortion propaganda from the 2016 Indiana Assembly as an argument for why those of us who strenuously disagree that fetuses deserve the legal rights of children should agree with calling fetuses children? The Indiana Assembly is certainly an authority on one thing: legislating clever ways to restrict women's right to obtain an abortion. I don't consider them authorities on much else.
    - dismantlethesun 10y ago
      Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize your 'we' only referred you personally and anyone who agreed with your conclusions. I had thought you meant a more general and inclusive 'we'.
08-15 10y ago
> Well, we abort children legally Fetuses. A fetus is not a child. I don't care about your opinion, but I do care about precise use of language.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  The language nitpicking seems like a grand way to miss the point being made and rather poetically make the exact same point at the same time.
  - mercutio2 10y ago
    Likening abortion to infanticide is akin to equating copyright violation with theft of tangible property. It's an evocative analogy, but it seems like a deliberate category error to many. Of course, I think safe inexpensive abortion is a great societal good, not a mild civil crime worthy of a hint of disapproval, so my analogy doesn't really hold up very well.
  - 08-15 10y ago
    The point being made is "I think a fetus is valuable." I get that. Duh. But even if everyone agreed, a fetus is still a different thing than a child. Believe it or not, there is hardly any disagreement about whether "abortion" of children should be legal. Saying one thing while meaning another doesn't make the point, it obscures it.

emodendroket 10y ago

IMO a lot or even most child sacrifice (especially infant sacrifice) in the ancient world can be understood as ritualizing the process of killing children one does not have the means to raise.

humanrebar 10y ago
...and a culture centered on humanism might group infanticide with medical procedures like appendectomies.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  I don't follow.
  - flubert 10y ago
    Abortion.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      Oh. Well, whether the ancients would have made a distinction or not they didn't have the means to do it safely or reliably.
      - makomk 10y ago
        I've seen it suggested that abortifacients of various kinds and effectivenesses were pretty widely known and used, actually. The Catholic Church and cultures influenced by it may well be the odd ones out here.
        emodendroket 10y ago
        The "safely" and "reliably" qualifiers are important here. Consider this text from the WP article about the history of abortion: > Soranus, a 2nd-century Greek physician, prescribed diuretics, emmenagogues, enemas, fasting, and bloodletting as safe abortion methods, although he advised against the use of sharp instruments to induce miscarriage, due to the risk of organ perforation. He also advised women wishing to abort their pregnancies to engage in energetic walking, carrying heavy objects, riding animals, and jumping so that the woman's heels were to touch her buttocks with each jump, which he described as the "Lacedaemonian Leap." I don't think people prescribing "energetic walking" and bloodletting have really figured this out.