6 ms·

And again they give a false implication that legal immigration would be at stake here. I don't mind if people support Trump or Hillary or whoever, but this inte

by pvdebbe 10y ago

And again they give a false implication that legal immigration would be at stake here. I don't mind if people support Trump or Hillary or whoever, but this intellectual dishonesty about newsreporting should cease.

croon 10y ago
To be fair, the counterpoint would be the false implication that only illegal immigrants would be affected by a Trump presidency, which is equally dishonest.
- tylerwhipple 10y ago
  Honest question, besides "Trump is a racist" are there any concrete reasons legal immigrants would be affected?
  - croon 10y ago
    Well, first off, legality in immigration is a cloudy term, meaning it's often tried in immigration courts, of which there are 58 in the entire country [1]. Also notable is that you are not appointed a lawyer in these courts [2]. There are only 250 judges in the country, handling more than 3 times the cases regular judges do [3]. Here's one example of an American being deported: [4]. This is the case right now. Ramping up deportation as Trump has suggested would obviously not yield better results. The immigration courts right now have a backlog of more than half a million cases [5]. I've not even touched stop-and-frisk, religious profiling, etc. Now, and this part is speculation, this part of history comes to mind: [6]. If it's TLDR, then search for "repatriation". [1]: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/office-of-the-chief-immigration-judge https://www.justice.gov/eoir/office-of-the-chief-immigration... [2]: http://naij-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2016-01-14-Reuters-Why-are-these-children-representing-themselves-in-court.pdf http://naij-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2016-01-14-Re... [3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-a-crowded-immigration-court-seven-minutes-to-decide-a-familys-future/2014/02/02/518c3e3e-8798-11e3-a5bd-844629433ba3_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-a-crowded-immigra... [4]: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/04/29/the-deportation-machine http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/04/29/the-deportation... [5]: http://trac.syr.edu/whatsnew/email.160915.html http://trac.syr.edu/whatsnew/email.160915.html [6]: http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/439114563/americas-forgotten-history-of-mexican-american-repatriation http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/439114563/americas-forgotten-h... Edit: Bonus: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trumps-proposal-for-legal-immigration/499061/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trumps-p...
    - code_sardaukar 10y ago
      I wonder why it is that your legalese is only applied to people who say that illegal immigration is a bad thing. Lots of people openly say that we should tolerate illegal immigration either for economic or humanitarian reasons, and I've never seen such an argument applied to them.
  - bcg1 10y ago
    var iceberg = { tip : "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on" } https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...
    - eveningcoffee 10y ago
      Edit: It could be that I overreacted. I would recommend to read the full quote after the link and not conclude based on small out of context quote. If you want a historical analogy that helps you to better connect with the situation under question then I would recommend to think about immigration of Germans into South America after WWII. This is what at least comes into my mind. I do not know if this analogy would be fair to either parties. Also it does not follow that I would recommend you to support one of the candidates based on this. If you happen to be an American.
      - bcg1 10y ago
        I linked to the entire press release.
kristopolous 10y ago
The definition of what legal is and its process is in the hands of who we vote for.
RGamma 10y ago
Exactly, and also once you're an established researcher or professional immigrating to basically any country becomes a breeze. Stoddart's open borders part therefore applies to many countries when you're talking about "brains", not poor/unqualified folk, who are still filtered rather rigorously (or at least disincentivized) by a legal immigration procedure.
youdontknowtho 10y ago
intellectual dishonesty. if you think that trump has been talking about illegal immigration only, I would like to point you to the term "dog whistle politics". Do you think that the white supremacists that have come out in support of him are only referring to illegal immigrants when they talk about the threat posed to "our" culture? Lee Atwater once explained in a speech that because of changes in social moirés you couldn't call black people "n*" anymore. Instead you could refer to racial issues in terms of tax cuts and school busing. Tax cuts keep your hard earned money from benefiting "those"" people and school busing...they were going to make your kids schools worse by bringing "them" in. Are there issues with the US immigration system. Yes. Has that been at issue in this election? Not really. That's just not what's going on here. The issue of immigration is a surrogate for a perceived loss of power by one population relative to another.
- kristopolous 10y ago
  there's more to it. The disenfranchised poor white didn't have a political voice. I know many out-of-work ex-democrat ex-liberal 50+ white males that are supporters of trump. Just last weekend, I was talking to an avid environmentalist in an interracial marriage who supports trump. To say "well some ignorant people are just racist" misses the true thing that's going on.
  - croon 10y ago
    No, it's every kind of populist blame politics. What's unfortunate is that Trumps platform is based purely on emotion, and zero solutions.
    - kristopolous 10y ago
      If you'd like to know more about how it's different, Robert Reich talked about it recently at the Commonwealth Club https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2016-09-27/robert-reich-oddest-presidential-election-living-memory https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2016-09-27/robert-re... and UC Berkeley Sociologist Arlie Hochshchild spent 5 years researching it (https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their-Own-Land-Mourning-ebook/dp/B01EEQ9BSW/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their-Own-Land-Mourning-ebo...), here's a Mother Jones article about it http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/trump-white-blue-collar-supporters http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/trump-white-blue....

by pvdebbe 10y ago

croon 10y ago

To be fair, the counterpoint would be the false implication that only illegal immigrants would be affected by a Trump presidency, which is equally dishonest.

tylerwhipple 10y ago
Honest question, besides "Trump is a racist" are there any concrete reasons legal immigrants would be affected?
- croon 10y ago
  Well, first off, legality in immigration is a cloudy term, meaning it's often tried in immigration courts, of which there are 58 in the entire country [1]. Also notable is that you are not appointed a lawyer in these courts [2]. There are only 250 judges in the country, handling more than 3 times the cases regular judges do [3]. Here's one example of an American being deported: [4]. This is the case right now. Ramping up deportation as Trump has suggested would obviously not yield better results. The immigration courts right now have a backlog of more than half a million cases [5]. I've not even touched stop-and-frisk, religious profiling, etc. Now, and this part is speculation, this part of history comes to mind: [6]. If it's TLDR, then search for "repatriation". [1]: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/office-of-the-chief-immigration-judge https://www.justice.gov/eoir/office-of-the-chief-immigration... [2]: http://naij-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2016-01-14-Reuters-Why-are-these-children-representing-themselves-in-court.pdf http://naij-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2016-01-14-Re... [3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-a-crowded-immigration-court-seven-minutes-to-decide-a-familys-future/2014/02/02/518c3e3e-8798-11e3-a5bd-844629433ba3_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/in-a-crowded-immigra... [4]: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/04/29/the-deportation-machine http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/04/29/the-deportation... [5]: http://trac.syr.edu/whatsnew/email.160915.html http://trac.syr.edu/whatsnew/email.160915.html [6]: http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/439114563/americas-forgotten-history-of-mexican-american-repatriation http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/439114563/americas-forgotten-h... Edit: Bonus: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trumps-proposal-for-legal-immigration/499061/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trumps-p...
  - code_sardaukar 10y ago
    I wonder why it is that your legalese is only applied to people who say that illegal immigration is a bad thing. Lots of people openly say that we should tolerate illegal immigration either for economic or humanitarian reasons, and I've never seen such an argument applied to them.
- bcg1 10y ago
  var iceberg = { tip : "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on" } https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...
  - eveningcoffee 10y ago
    Edit: It could be that I overreacted. I would recommend to read the full quote after the link and not conclude based on small out of context quote. If you want a historical analogy that helps you to better connect with the situation under question then I would recommend to think about immigration of Germans into South America after WWII. This is what at least comes into my mind. I do not know if this analogy would be fair to either parties. Also it does not follow that I would recommend you to support one of the candidates based on this. If you happen to be an American.
    - bcg1 10y ago
      I linked to the entire press release.

kristopolous 10y ago

The definition of what legal is and its process is in the hands of who we vote for.

RGamma 10y ago

Exactly, and also once you're an established researcher or professional immigrating to basically any country becomes a breeze. Stoddart's open borders part therefore applies to many countries when you're talking about "brains", not poor/unqualified folk, who are still filtered rather rigorously (or at least disincentivized) by a legal immigration procedure.

youdontknowtho 10y ago

intellectual dishonesty. if you think that trump has been talking about illegal immigration only, I would like to point you to the term "dog whistle politics". Do you think that the white supremacists that have come out in support of him are only referring to illegal immigrants when they talk about the threat posed to "our" culture? Lee Atwater once explained in a speech that because of changes in social moirés you couldn't call black people "n*" anymore. Instead you could refer to racial issues in terms of tax cuts and school busing. Tax cuts keep your hard earned money from benefiting "those"" people and school busing...they were going to make your kids schools worse by bringing "them" in. Are there issues with the US immigration system. Yes. Has that been at issue in this election? Not really. That's just not what's going on here. The issue of immigration is a surrogate for a perceived loss of power by one population relative to another.

kristopolous 10y ago
there's more to it. The disenfranchised poor white didn't have a political voice. I know many out-of-work ex-democrat ex-liberal 50+ white males that are supporters of trump. Just last weekend, I was talking to an avid environmentalist in an interracial marriage who supports trump. To say "well some ignorant people are just racist" misses the true thing that's going on.
- croon 10y ago
  No, it's every kind of populist blame politics. What's unfortunate is that Trumps platform is based purely on emotion, and zero solutions.
  - kristopolous 10y ago
    If you'd like to know more about how it's different, Robert Reich talked about it recently at the Commonwealth Club https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2016-09-27/robert-reich-oddest-presidential-election-living-memory https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2016-09-27/robert-re... and UC Berkeley Sociologist Arlie Hochshchild spent 5 years researching it (https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their-Own-Land-Mourning-ebook/dp/B01EEQ9BSW/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their-Own-Land-Mourning-ebo...), here's a Mother Jones article about it http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/trump-white-blue-collar-supporters http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/trump-white-blue....