4 ms·

Isn't her activity like the textbook definition of fraud? Not to mention the dude who she basically pushed into committing suicide. I hope she gets at least as

Isn't her activity like the textbook definition of fraud? Not to mention the dude who she basically pushed into committing suicide. I hope she gets at least as much time as Madoff.

M_Grey 10y ago
Yes, but she's incredibly well connected, so expect no criminal charges.
- saretired 10y ago
  On the other hand, so are some of her investors. And there I think it comes down to protecting their reputations; if they can point to criminal fraud, they can paint themselves as victims rather than fools. We'll see how it plays out.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    I think they come off as fools either way; people aren't any prouder to have been conned by a criminal, than having made a stupid investment. If they're concerned about saving face, they'll lay low for a while.
rayiner 10y ago
There is civil fraud and criminal fraud, which require proving the same things. But generally, the government will only pursue criminal fraud prosecutions when there is a public interest component. Madoff defrauded a large number of people, and his fraud affected little old ladies' pensions. The government will generally stay out of fraud directed at a handful of sophisticated investors.
- enjo 10y ago
  It seems like clear fraud was directed at the general public and their health outcomes. I don't care much about the investors, they can take it. It was something like 6% of tests were fraudulently performed by their "technology", with potentially dangerous results.
Fricken 10y ago
What Madoff did was illegal and malicious from the outset. Do you believe that when Holmes was handed the opportunity, at 19, to bring the Edison to market that she set out with the intent of defrauding investors? The only thing she's provably guilty of thus far is believing in her company a little more than is sensible and being preternaturally competent as a fundraiser. When Musk claims he can get people to Mars for $200k, do we say 'That's preposterous!', and slap him in cuffs? It's up to the investors of Spacex to decide whether or not they want to gamble on that proposition. Would you put 100 million into Magic Leap because Rony Abovitz says 'it's rad', or would you insist on seeing a demo first? Because none of Theranos investors did that.
- alexqgb 10y ago
  The fact that Madoff's intent was criminal from the outset and that Holmes' probably wasn't is irrelevant. The point is that it became criminal. And that's why she's in the firing line today.
  - Fricken 10y ago
    At what point did she shift from being an optimistic entrepeneur to a criminal? Was it when she started getting magazine covers? Was it when Hwnry Kissinger joined the board of directors? She's still giving her company 110% in spite of everything that has transpired. Usually the correct time for a startup founder/CEO to call it quits is when they run out of capital, until then it's their job to try and make it work come hell or high water.
    - chx 10y ago
      When she lied about what Theranos has...?
    - ng12 10y ago
      When diagnostic medicine was being conducted with technology she knew wasn't what it was claimed to be. We threw the Enron guys in prison and they only hurt people's wallets, not their health. I don't think she gets off the hook because she's a Sillicon Valley sweetheart.

Isn't her activity like the textbook definition of fraud? Not to mention the dude who she basically pushed into committing suicide. I hope she gets at least as much time as Madoff.

M_Grey 10y ago

Yes, but she's incredibly well connected, so expect no criminal charges.

saretired 10y ago
On the other hand, so are some of her investors. And there I think it comes down to protecting their reputations; if they can point to criminal fraud, they can paint themselves as victims rather than fools. We'll see how it plays out.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I think they come off as fools either way; people aren't any prouder to have been conned by a criminal, than having made a stupid investment. If they're concerned about saving face, they'll lay low for a while.

rayiner 10y ago

There is civil fraud and criminal fraud, which require proving the same things. But generally, the government will only pursue criminal fraud prosecutions when there is a public interest component. Madoff defrauded a large number of people, and his fraud affected little old ladies' pensions. The government will generally stay out of fraud directed at a handful of sophisticated investors.

enjo 10y ago
It seems like clear fraud was directed at the general public and their health outcomes. I don't care much about the investors, they can take it. It was something like 6% of tests were fraudulently performed by their "technology", with potentially dangerous results.

Fricken 10y ago

What Madoff did was illegal and malicious from the outset. Do you believe that when Holmes was handed the opportunity, at 19, to bring the Edison to market that she set out with the intent of defrauding investors? The only thing she's provably guilty of thus far is believing in her company a little more than is sensible and being preternaturally competent as a fundraiser. When Musk claims he can get people to Mars for $200k, do we say 'That's preposterous!', and slap him in cuffs? It's up to the investors of Spacex to decide whether or not they want to gamble on that proposition. Would you put 100 million into Magic Leap because Rony Abovitz says 'it's rad', or would you insist on seeing a demo first? Because none of Theranos investors did that.

alexqgb 10y ago
The fact that Madoff's intent was criminal from the outset and that Holmes' probably wasn't is irrelevant. The point is that it became criminal. And that's why she's in the firing line today.
- Fricken 10y ago
  At what point did she shift from being an optimistic entrepeneur to a criminal? Was it when she started getting magazine covers? Was it when Hwnry Kissinger joined the board of directors? She's still giving her company 110% in spite of everything that has transpired. Usually the correct time for a startup founder/CEO to call it quits is when they run out of capital, until then it's their job to try and make it work come hell or high water.
  - chx 10y ago
    When she lied about what Theranos has...?
  - ng12 10y ago
    When diagnostic medicine was being conducted with technology she knew wasn't what it was claimed to be. We threw the Enron guys in prison and they only hurt people's wallets, not their health. I don't think she gets off the hook because she's a Sillicon Valley sweetheart.