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I think Apple's position is reasonable here. A second developer account, which is the account linked to fraudulent reviews, was opened using the same credit ca

I think Apple's position is reasonable here. A second developer account, which is the account linked to fraudulent reviews, was opened using the same credit card, same bank account, and same test devices as the main Kapeli account. So it's reasonable that they would assume the same person was in control of both accounts. The developer claims this is not the case, however. Apple seems willing to accept that. All they are asking is for him to write a blog post stating these facts.

Mithaldu 10y ago
The unreasonable parts are: - Apple assumed, and let these assumptions stay untested, and particularly failed to reach out to the different contact details on all involved accounts. - Apple admits they terminated his account in error, yet blackmail him in refusing to reinstate unless he makes a blog post. (Actual contents of the post irrelevant to the point at hand.)
- eridius 10y ago
  Where did they say they terminated his account in error? On the recorded call they made it very clear that the accounts were linked and that Apple believes that to be accurate. The fact that they're willing to provide Kapeli with a way to get his account unlinked and reinstated does not mean they were incorrect in the first place.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. Absent any wrongdoing on his side the termination is in error. Additionally they made the error of not contacting the holders of all accounts involved.
    - eridius 10y ago
      Kapeli did not commit fraud. But that does not mean Apple was incorrect in linking the two accounts. In fact, 20 seconds into the call, the Apple rep says > We don't believe that there was a mistake here, right. We don't think that we made a mistake. So no, Apple is very explicitly saying they were not in error.
      - Mithaldu 10y ago
        They're saying they think they did not make an error. That's entirely separate from what happened in reality. Besides, even if they say they think it, that might just as well be rethoric.
        eridius 10y ago
        Rhetoric? They make it very clear in the call that they believe their view is an accurate representation of reality. Maybe you should actually listen to the call.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        It's rethoric because their stated beliefs clash with the facts of reality they admit to in that call.
        eridius 10y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call? Because I'm pretty sure they don't. They explain that the accounts were linked and that they don't think they made a mistake in linking those accounts. And they offered the developer a way to unlink the accounts and restore his account without the developer having to admit to wrongdoing. But nobody seems to be disputing that the second account was engaged in fraud, and Apple gave some perfectly reasonable reasons for the two accounts to have been linked.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        > Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call? Yes, and it boils down to one thing: Either the termination of his account was correct, and should be upheld; or it was wrong, and should be rescinded. There are many times in life when things are in a range of grey between black and white, but this case is entirely black and white. Either they made an error with the termination or they didn't. If they made an error the account should be reinstated without question, delay or condition. If they did not make an error it needs to remain closed. By the very fact that they are willing to reinstate it, they admit to the fact that the termination was in error, regardless of what they believe of say they believe. Doublethink is real.
    - metrognome 10y ago
      The Apple representative also stated that the accounts were the same legal entity (due to the accounts being based on the same bank account). I don't think it's necessarily an error for them not to contact all involved accounts if they share something as private as a bank account.
      - smackfu 10y ago
        In a lot of countries, bank account is just the standard way of paying for everything.
        0x0 10y ago
        It could be the bank account used for receiving proceeds from app store sales they are talking about.
      - davrosthedalek 10y ago
        Them linking accounts by some heuristic does make them the same /legal/ entity. Shared bank accounts/accounts with multiple owners do exist. They bet that their heuristic is correct. In this case they might have gotten it wrong. That's their problem. Do they make people aware that the accounts are linked?
        _pr 10y ago
        It's in the Apple Developer Program License Agreement. You're responsible for anything that happens with your stuff while it's enrolled under your name.
      - vsl 10y ago
        It’s also possible he misspoke and was referring to the credit or debit card (and thus the account it was for) used to open the dev account.
    - IBM 10y ago
      The Apple representative told him he doesn't need to admit to any wrongdoing which is different from saying they believe there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's part.
      - Mithaldu 10y ago
        It does not matter what they think or believe. They admit to certain facts being reality and that's all that matters.
        IBM 10y ago
        It matters what they think or believe because you said >Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. which is a misrepresentation of what the Apple rep said on the call.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        Alright, i worded that badly. They admit to there being no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side by giving the option to reopen his account at all. If they thought there were any wrongdoing they wouldn't even be talking to him, much less make him that offer.
        interpol_p 10y ago
        Why are you equating Apple's willingness reinstate his account with an admission that there was no wrongdoing? The wrongdoing here is that he opened multiple accounts that could legally be linked to him and allowed one of them to be used to defraud the App Store. Apple could see that as wrongdoing while being sympathetic to his story that he forgot about it / lost control of it and so allow him to reinstate his account.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        > he opened multiple accounts You got your facts wrong. He did not do that.
wvenable 10y ago
Apple is reasonable but they should probably change their policy to notify all "linked" accounts when one of these accounts might end up being responsible for closing them all.
pier25 10y ago
Not at all. If Apple is ready to bring him back it's because he didn't commit fraud. And if he didn't commit fraud he shouldn't need to write a blog post as a condition to get back. Quite contrary, Apple owes him an apology.
- interpol_p 10y ago
  The blog post request is to make it clear that his account was linked to an account engaged in fraudulent activity. Apple wanted him to post it because it would make clear that he opened both developer accounts with his credit card, even if he eventually lost control of one. If you open developer accounts that eventually engage in fraudulent activity you're not "owed" an apology. You should be on top of the things you open in your name and with your bank details. Apple should have taken steps to notify all linked accounts. That's their mistake. But it was the developer's mistake to open an account for someone who would engage in fraud in the first place.

Mithaldu 10y ago

The unreasonable parts are: - Apple assumed, and let these assumptions stay untested, and particularly failed to reach out to the different contact details on all involved accounts. - Apple admits they terminated his account in error, yet blackmail him in refusing to reinstate unless he makes a blog post. (Actual contents of the post irrelevant to the point at hand.)

eridius 10y ago
Where did they say they terminated his account in error? On the recorded call they made it very clear that the accounts were linked and that Apple believes that to be accurate. The fact that they're willing to provide Kapeli with a way to get his account unlinked and reinstated does not mean they were incorrect in the first place.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. Absent any wrongdoing on his side the termination is in error. Additionally they made the error of not contacting the holders of all accounts involved.
  - eridius 10y ago
    Kapeli did not commit fraud. But that does not mean Apple was incorrect in linking the two accounts. In fact, 20 seconds into the call, the Apple rep says > We don't believe that there was a mistake here, right. We don't think that we made a mistake. So no, Apple is very explicitly saying they were not in error.
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      They're saying they think they did not make an error. That's entirely separate from what happened in reality. Besides, even if they say they think it, that might just as well be rethoric.
      - eridius 10y ago
        Rhetoric? They make it very clear in the call that they believe their view is an accurate representation of reality. Maybe you should actually listen to the call.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        It's rethoric because their stated beliefs clash with the facts of reality they admit to in that call.
        eridius 10y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call? Because I'm pretty sure they don't. They explain that the accounts were linked and that they don't think they made a mistake in linking those accounts. And they offered the developer a way to unlink the accounts and restore his account without the developer having to admit to wrongdoing. But nobody seems to be disputing that the second account was engaged in fraud, and Apple gave some perfectly reasonable reasons for the two accounts to have been linked.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        > Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call? Yes, and it boils down to one thing: Either the termination of his account was correct, and should be upheld; or it was wrong, and should be rescinded. There are many times in life when things are in a range of grey between black and white, but this case is entirely black and white. Either they made an error with the termination or they didn't. If they made an error the account should be reinstated without question, delay or condition. If they did not make an error it needs to remain closed. By the very fact that they are willing to reinstate it, they admit to the fact that the termination was in error, regardless of what they believe of say they believe. Doublethink is real.
  - metrognome 10y ago
    The Apple representative also stated that the accounts were the same legal entity (due to the accounts being based on the same bank account). I don't think it's necessarily an error for them not to contact all involved accounts if they share something as private as a bank account.
    - smackfu 10y ago
      In a lot of countries, bank account is just the standard way of paying for everything.
      - 0x0 10y ago
        It could be the bank account used for receiving proceeds from app store sales they are talking about.
    - davrosthedalek 10y ago
      Them linking accounts by some heuristic does make them the same /legal/ entity. Shared bank accounts/accounts with multiple owners do exist. They bet that their heuristic is correct. In this case they might have gotten it wrong. That's their problem. Do they make people aware that the accounts are linked?
      - _pr 10y ago
        It's in the Apple Developer Program License Agreement. You're responsible for anything that happens with your stuff while it's enrolled under your name.
    - vsl 10y ago
      It’s also possible he misspoke and was referring to the credit or debit card (and thus the account it was for) used to open the dev account.
  - IBM 10y ago
    The Apple representative told him he doesn't need to admit to any wrongdoing which is different from saying they believe there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's part.
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      It does not matter what they think or believe. They admit to certain facts being reality and that's all that matters.
      - IBM 10y ago
        It matters what they think or believe because you said >Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. which is a misrepresentation of what the Apple rep said on the call.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        Alright, i worded that badly. They admit to there being no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side by giving the option to reopen his account at all. If they thought there were any wrongdoing they wouldn't even be talking to him, much less make him that offer.
        interpol_p 10y ago
        Why are you equating Apple's willingness reinstate his account with an admission that there was no wrongdoing? The wrongdoing here is that he opened multiple accounts that could legally be linked to him and allowed one of them to be used to defraud the App Store. Apple could see that as wrongdoing while being sympathetic to his story that he forgot about it / lost control of it and so allow him to reinstate his account.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        > he opened multiple accounts You got your facts wrong. He did not do that.

wvenable 10y ago

Apple is reasonable but they should probably change their policy to notify all "linked" accounts when one of these accounts might end up being responsible for closing them all.

pier25 10y ago

Not at all. If Apple is ready to bring him back it's because he didn't commit fraud. And if he didn't commit fraud he shouldn't need to write a blog post as a condition to get back. Quite contrary, Apple owes him an apology.

interpol_p 10y ago
The blog post request is to make it clear that his account was linked to an account engaged in fraudulent activity. Apple wanted him to post it because it would make clear that he opened both developer accounts with his credit card, even if he eventually lost control of one. If you open developer accounts that eventually engage in fraudulent activity you're not "owed" an apology. You should be on top of the things you open in your name and with your bank details. Apple should have taken steps to notify all linked accounts. That's their mistake. But it was the developer's mistake to open an account for someone who would engage in fraud in the first place.