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Adults also get personal choice as to which TV programs they watch, which beverages they drink, which candidates to vote for, whether to join the military. The

Adults also get personal choice as to which TV programs they watch, which beverages they drink, which candidates to vote for, whether to join the military. The option is not whether to constrain the choices available to children - it's a matter of who gets to decide. Remember, always turn things around: how would you feel if the religious right got to tell you that you couldn't raise your children as atheists or agnostics?

Retric 10y ago
> how would you feel if the religious right got to tell you that you couldn't raise your children as atheists or agnostics? This has been a common state of affair in many places for thousands of years. But here is the thing, you don't need to indoctrinate someone as an agnostic. An interesting comparison is the effort to maintain belief in Santa Clause vs end it.
- smithkl42 10y ago
  I'm not actually sure how common it was for the government to intervene in families' home lives, even, say, at the height of the middle ages or the Byzantine empire. That said, to whatever extent it did happen, it was wrong, and the Catholic church acknowledges as much these days. On the other hand, I think the history of humanity, which involves nearly universal belief in some flavor of divinity, is all-but-conclusive proof that your second point is incorrect. That doesn't mean the x-theists are right: just that religion is quite obviously the default state of humanity, and irreligion is the exception.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    Religious thinking doesn't require divinity. various outspoken outrage groups qualify, as does anyone who has a belief system that is not evidence-based.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Promoting Religion has clear upsides and most humans for most of human history have not had their thoughts recorded. Further, religious people kept a lot of our history's. So we have no idea how common actual belief was. I suspect in 10,000 years looking though limited and relatively random records Santa could be considered a widely warshiped god even if effectively zero adults believe in him today. Private journals are solid evidence, writing on temple walls is not. A coworkers Rabbi growing up was an atheist. If we are going by popularity either Atheism or Agnostic beliefs are probably the single most common specific beliefs. Religions come and go, shifting through time so a modern Mormon has little in common with a 5th century Christian sects.
- smithkl42 10y ago
  On a side note - you do know that Santa is real, right? He was a real bishop in Turkey in the 4th century, participated in the Council of Nicea, and was even reputed to have thrown a punch at Arius on the council floor.
CoryG89 10y ago
I would agree with the religious right on that point. I think brainwashing a child into blind acceptance of atheism is just as bad.

Retric 10y ago

> how would you feel if the religious right got to tell you that you couldn't raise your children as atheists or agnostics? This has been a common state of affair in many places for thousands of years. But here is the thing, you don't need to indoctrinate someone as an agnostic. An interesting comparison is the effort to maintain belief in Santa Clause vs end it.

smithkl42 10y ago
I'm not actually sure how common it was for the government to intervene in families' home lives, even, say, at the height of the middle ages or the Byzantine empire. That said, to whatever extent it did happen, it was wrong, and the Catholic church acknowledges as much these days. On the other hand, I think the history of humanity, which involves nearly universal belief in some flavor of divinity, is all-but-conclusive proof that your second point is incorrect. That doesn't mean the x-theists are right: just that religion is quite obviously the default state of humanity, and irreligion is the exception.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  Religious thinking doesn't require divinity. various outspoken outrage groups qualify, as does anyone who has a belief system that is not evidence-based.
- Retric 10y ago
  Promoting Religion has clear upsides and most humans for most of human history have not had their thoughts recorded. Further, religious people kept a lot of our history's. So we have no idea how common actual belief was. I suspect in 10,000 years looking though limited and relatively random records Santa could be considered a widely warshiped god even if effectively zero adults believe in him today. Private journals are solid evidence, writing on temple walls is not. A coworkers Rabbi growing up was an atheist. If we are going by popularity either Atheism or Agnostic beliefs are probably the single most common specific beliefs. Religions come and go, shifting through time so a modern Mormon has little in common with a 5th century Christian sects.
smithkl42 10y ago
On a side note - you do know that Santa is real, right? He was a real bishop in Turkey in the 4th century, participated in the Council of Nicea, and was even reputed to have thrown a punch at Arius on the council floor.

CoryG89 10y ago

I would agree with the religious right on that point. I think brainwashing a child into blind acceptance of atheism is just as bad.