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"Bringing women into computer science is also an important task" Why? Because political correctness says so? I don't understand this obsession with "diversity

by Rod 16y ago

"Bringing women into computer science is also an important task" Why? Because political correctness says so? I don't understand this obsession with "diversity" in the U.S., I really don't. Personally, I think that we should instead bring intelligent and motivated people into CS. If they're all white males, so be it. They could be black-asian mixed-blood muslim lesbians... who cares? Just as long as they're interested. People who choose a career based on the "coolness" factor dictated by the clueless masses are like people who choose jobs based on the title (I will kill the next person who claims to be hiring code ninjas)... they are sheep. We need wolves, not sheep.

maigret 16y ago
No you don't want a product made by wolves. Because no sheep will buy it ever. Why do you need diversity? I've heard this story about a japanese stereo system. Nobody bought it, and they searched why. There were too much buttons on it - it had been only designed by a team of men, all engineer. You want diversity in the product conception because you want your product to appeal to a diverse (global) world. Of course that maybe be not valid for a plane autopilot system, but this is the case for many jobs (think of Web programming).
- apsec112 16y ago
  "Why do you need diversity?" You want diversity of opinion and diversity of talent. The question he's asking is: why do Americans care so much about diversity of skin color? Why does it matter if the engineers are all black or white or Malay or whatever? "There were too much buttons on it - it had been only designed by a team of men, all engineer." Yup. Because all men are incompetent at UI design, just like how girls can't do math. </sarcasm> "You want diversity in the product conception because you want your product to appeal to a diverse (global) world." What does that even mean? The vast, vast majority of products are only intended for First World use, because only First Worlders have the money to buy them. I really don't like how people use the words "cultural diversity" as a feel-good buzzword without actually understanding what it means. Real cultural diversity doesn't consist of dark-skinned people with bright-colored clothes doing some sort of ritual dancing. Real cultural diversity is like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw - things that seem horrifying, disgusting, and wrong to us. (Biblical culture is roughly as distant from ours as many African cultures are.)
- TrollTime 16y ago
  This will not be a problem for long. Eugenics failed, but genetic engineering will finally enable us to get rid of the retards and create a new slave race of women that go back where they belong; The kitchen.
- Rod 16y ago
  You're missing the point. I was talking about CS, not about product design. Turing machines have nothing to do with iPods. Engineers are supposed to design systems given some specs. The specs are to be compiled by someone else. The designers are the ones who should worry about the buttons in the product. The engineers should worry about making the electronics and software work. So, I say it again: we need wolves. Not just in electronics and software, but also in design, manufacture, etc. People who go along with the flow make good, loyal employees at some big corporation, but they will never create anything new... and the main reason is that they lack the motivation to create something new. If they had such motivation, they would be wolves.
cenazoic 16y ago
No, because people of different genders/ethnicities bring different perspectives to the table. Because if a field is dominated by say, white males, the few women or non-white males are going to feel (frequently with good reason) like they're not taken as seriously by, or seen as being as competent as, the other white males. This is regardless of quantifiers such as actual competence, knowledge, or experience. While I agree with you that ideally the most motivated, competent, intelligent people should be in X field and those are the only criteria one should care about, the reality is all too often quite different.
- TrollTime 16y ago
  The only thing more women is going to cause is rape. I think it's best that they stay where they are safe. Sex deprived engineers should imho have a more gentle introduction to women than suddenly having them shoved in like that.
- apsec112 16y ago
  "No, because people of different genders/ethnicities bring different perspectives to the table." What does that even mean? What you want is diversity of opinion (so that, if one person has a bad idea, everyone else will call them on it instead of nodding like sheep), and diversity of talent (so that everyone doesn't share the same weaknesses). I suppose those correlate with gender and ethnicity to some extent, but why not try to hire people with lots of different resumes (coders at big companies, startup founders, independent consultants, people who've lived abroad in different countries, etc.)? That would be way more efficient. "Because if a field is dominated by say, white males, the few women or non-white males are going to feel (frequently with good reason) like they're not taken as seriously by, or seen as being as competent as, the other white males." Proof? Some fields are obviously like this, but why all of them, or even most of them? If a field is dominated by people who are born in the winter (as many professional sports are), is someone born in June going to be assumed to be less competent?
- baddox 16y ago
  If you're competent, you will be seen as competent.
- 16y ago
swift 16y ago
I don't see the relevance between "wolves and sheep" and the rest of your argument. The point is not that we need to pressure women into CS, or market it to them in a glitzy fashion; instead, we simply need to make CS as comfortable an environment for women as it is for men, so that women who have the talent to succeed in CS choose to study it more often. In other words, we're missing out on a great deal of talent that CS could benefit from, and we want to try to bring that talent into the fold! Measuring the number of women in computer science, as compared to their proportion in the overall population, is just a proxy for our success in this task; assuming that men and women have aptitude for CS at equal rates, we expect them to be equally represented in the discipline, so when they aren't it suggests that other factors are keeping female talent out of CS and we want to fix that problem. I don't pretend to know every reason for the gender imbalance in CS, but I can suggest a couple of factors that likely contribute. One is cultural stereotypes about the type of person who would get a CS degree. The stereotypical CS person in the US (and in the UK as well, if the BBC's TV shows are any guide) is an introverted, socially awkward, physically weak male. This stereotype is pervasive enough in our culture to harm many peoples' interest in computers from a young age; it likely keeps both men and women out of CS, but I suspect it has a disproportionate effect on young women due to the particular social pressures they face. Working to eliminate this stereotype would help everyone involved and bring more talent into CS. The other factor is that CS can be a bit of a boy's club at times. I've seen some of my CS professors make comments that frankly shocked me about things like the role of women in the workplace. There's no excuse for this attitude; it can do nothing but push talented people out of our field, and anyone involved in academia should show no tolerance for this kind of behavior. Frankly, I think this discussion of "wolves and sheep" is nothing but an excuse to sweep very real cultural problems, both in the general US population and in academic institutions, under the rug.
joshuaeckroth 16y ago
I don't know about "an obsession with 'diversity'" but that was not the point of my comment. The point was to find ways to avoid isolating women. It may happen that in completely "politically correct" disciplines there are, say, more men than women (or vice versa) but why would that be the case? Because of something biological? That's a bit absurd. It's perfectly ok to value competence and interest-level over diversity. But why are there significantly fewer women in computer science? Because they are less competent or interested for some biological reason? Absurd. Few women are in computer science for a host of reasons (and probably more we do not know about). Perhaps the slides I pointed out in the presentation are part of the reasons. It's hard to be sure but when we give presentations about joining CS, perhaps we can specifically try to avoid isolating women. (Of course, I have not solidly argued that those particular slides do isolate women.) And I mean specifically, intentionally avoid isolating women. That is, read over the presentation twice; the second reading is to find such issues.

by Rod 16y ago

maigret 16y ago

No you don't want a product made by wolves. Because no sheep will buy it ever. Why do you need diversity? I've heard this story about a japanese stereo system. Nobody bought it, and they searched why. There were too much buttons on it - it had been only designed by a team of men, all engineer. You want diversity in the product conception because you want your product to appeal to a diverse (global) world. Of course that maybe be not valid for a plane autopilot system, but this is the case for many jobs (think of Web programming).

apsec112 16y ago
"Why do you need diversity?" You want diversity of opinion and diversity of talent. The question he's asking is: why do Americans care so much about diversity of skin color? Why does it matter if the engineers are all black or white or Malay or whatever? "There were too much buttons on it - it had been only designed by a team of men, all engineer." Yup. Because all men are incompetent at UI design, just like how girls can't do math. </sarcasm> "You want diversity in the product conception because you want your product to appeal to a diverse (global) world." What does that even mean? The vast, vast majority of products are only intended for First World use, because only First Worlders have the money to buy them. I really don't like how people use the words "cultural diversity" as a feel-good buzzword without actually understanding what it means. Real cultural diversity doesn't consist of dark-skinned people with bright-colored clothes doing some sort of ritual dancing. Real cultural diversity is like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw - things that seem horrifying, disgusting, and wrong to us. (Biblical culture is roughly as distant from ours as many African cultures are.)
TrollTime 16y ago
This will not be a problem for long. Eugenics failed, but genetic engineering will finally enable us to get rid of the retards and create a new slave race of women that go back where they belong; The kitchen.
Rod 16y ago
You're missing the point. I was talking about CS, not about product design. Turing machines have nothing to do with iPods. Engineers are supposed to design systems given some specs. The specs are to be compiled by someone else. The designers are the ones who should worry about the buttons in the product. The engineers should worry about making the electronics and software work. So, I say it again: we need wolves. Not just in electronics and software, but also in design, manufacture, etc. People who go along with the flow make good, loyal employees at some big corporation, but they will never create anything new... and the main reason is that they lack the motivation to create something new. If they had such motivation, they would be wolves.

cenazoic 16y ago

No, because people of different genders/ethnicities bring different perspectives to the table. Because if a field is dominated by say, white males, the few women or non-white males are going to feel (frequently with good reason) like they're not taken as seriously by, or seen as being as competent as, the other white males. This is regardless of quantifiers such as actual competence, knowledge, or experience. While I agree with you that ideally the most motivated, competent, intelligent people should be in X field and those are the only criteria one should care about, the reality is all too often quite different.

TrollTime 16y ago
The only thing more women is going to cause is rape. I think it's best that they stay where they are safe. Sex deprived engineers should imho have a more gentle introduction to women than suddenly having them shoved in like that.
apsec112 16y ago
"No, because people of different genders/ethnicities bring different perspectives to the table." What does that even mean? What you want is diversity of opinion (so that, if one person has a bad idea, everyone else will call them on it instead of nodding like sheep), and diversity of talent (so that everyone doesn't share the same weaknesses). I suppose those correlate with gender and ethnicity to some extent, but why not try to hire people with lots of different resumes (coders at big companies, startup founders, independent consultants, people who've lived abroad in different countries, etc.)? That would be way more efficient. "Because if a field is dominated by say, white males, the few women or non-white males are going to feel (frequently with good reason) like they're not taken as seriously by, or seen as being as competent as, the other white males." Proof? Some fields are obviously like this, but why all of them, or even most of them? If a field is dominated by people who are born in the winter (as many professional sports are), is someone born in June going to be assumed to be less competent?
baddox 16y ago
If you're competent, you will be seen as competent.
16y ago

swift 16y ago

I don't see the relevance between "wolves and sheep" and the rest of your argument. The point is not that we need to pressure women into CS, or market it to them in a glitzy fashion; instead, we simply need to make CS as comfortable an environment for women as it is for men, so that women who have the talent to succeed in CS choose to study it more often. In other words, we're missing out on a great deal of talent that CS could benefit from, and we want to try to bring that talent into the fold! Measuring the number of women in computer science, as compared to their proportion in the overall population, is just a proxy for our success in this task; assuming that men and women have aptitude for CS at equal rates, we expect them to be equally represented in the discipline, so when they aren't it suggests that other factors are keeping female talent out of CS and we want to fix that problem. I don't pretend to know every reason for the gender imbalance in CS, but I can suggest a couple of factors that likely contribute. One is cultural stereotypes about the type of person who would get a CS degree. The stereotypical CS person in the US (and in the UK as well, if the BBC's TV shows are any guide) is an introverted, socially awkward, physically weak male. This stereotype is pervasive enough in our culture to harm many peoples' interest in computers from a young age; it likely keeps both men and women out of CS, but I suspect it has a disproportionate effect on young women due to the particular social pressures they face. Working to eliminate this stereotype would help everyone involved and bring more talent into CS. The other factor is that CS can be a bit of a boy's club at times. I've seen some of my CS professors make comments that frankly shocked me about things like the role of women in the workplace. There's no excuse for this attitude; it can do nothing but push talented people out of our field, and anyone involved in academia should show no tolerance for this kind of behavior. Frankly, I think this discussion of "wolves and sheep" is nothing but an excuse to sweep very real cultural problems, both in the general US population and in academic institutions, under the rug.

joshuaeckroth 16y ago

I don't know about "an obsession with 'diversity'" but that was not the point of my comment. The point was to find ways to avoid isolating women. It may happen that in completely "politically correct" disciplines there are, say, more men than women (or vice versa) but why would that be the case? Because of something biological? That's a bit absurd. It's perfectly ok to value competence and interest-level over diversity. But why are there significantly fewer women in computer science? Because they are less competent or interested for some biological reason? Absurd. Few women are in computer science for a host of reasons (and probably more we do not know about). Perhaps the slides I pointed out in the presentation are part of the reasons. It's hard to be sure but when we give presentations about joining CS, perhaps we can specifically try to avoid isolating women. (Of course, I have not solidly argued that those particular slides do isolate women.) And I mean specifically, intentionally avoid isolating women. That is, read over the presentation twice; the second reading is to find such issues.