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>"people who push the view that any medical practice that >comes from the natural/traditional/alternative medicine >world is by-definition false and harmful s

>"people who push the view that any medical practice that >comes from the natural/traditional/alternative medicine >world is by-definition false and harmful snake-oil" I don't see prominent people in medicine saying this at all. They don't mind if you pull the medicine out of your ass, as long as it's efficacy and safety is tested with some rigor before advocating it. >people who, having exhausted all the options offered by >mainstream medicine, seek an alternative This practice is dangerous and has resulted in many negative outcomes. This is navigating through a minefield of unsupported claims, no quality evidence, anecdotes, and people trying to scam you. Very difficult without professional guidance. >"Almost all startups fail too..." False equivalence. Most failed startup don't kill people. Besides, no one said alt medicines shouldn't get a shot. The promising leads will continued to be followed. It just has had an extremely low hit rate.

tomhoward 10y ago
Just note the words/tone you use when addressing this topic: - They don't mind if you pull the medicine out of your ass - This practice is dangerous and has resulted in many negative outcomes. This is navigating through a minefield of unsupported claims, no quality evidence, anecdotes, and people trying to scam you. - Most failed startup don't kill people. Think about how much harder it makes it to get any proper research done, when this is the attitude held and promoted by people in the mainstream science community. It's all very well for people to look at the artemisinin case and say "yes well it's only thanks to modern science we could establish the efficacy of that". Which is true, but it's also only because of the people who avoided/resisted succumbing to the zealotry of mainstream science that it was able to get on the radar of mainstream science at all. In truth, serious harms and deaths as a direct result of alternative medicine are very few. The overwhelming majority of natural/alternative medicine involves educated people undertaking low-risk treatments for non-life-threatening conditions, and experiencing an improved quality of life as a result - hence they keep going back. Primary examples are: yoga, meditation, hypnotherapy, massage, muscular/structural adjustment (osteo/chiro) - all of which work to relieve stress/trauma and release the effects of stress, leading to a long-term reduction in stress-related illness; nutrition, probiotics and detoxification treatments to improve digestion and metabolism. That list probably captures over 95% of the natural/alternative medicine. Practitioners of these therapies are trained, registered, and answerable to regulators, professional bodies, insurers, clients, society and their own conscience. Unethical/incompetent practitioners are exposed and put out of business. Where serious harms or deaths occur, it is front page news. As for efficacy, for these treatments I maintain that the market is a strong indicator. People who experience benefits keep going back, and in growing numbers. But there are also plenty of studies that indicate that people who engage in the above practices enjoy better health over the long term. Here's a study that demonstrates improvements in neurotransmitter levels after 12 weeks of yoga [1]. Meanwhile, deaths just from prescription opioid painkillers numbered over 28000 in the US in 2014 alone [2]. My own experience makes me certain that at least some of those people could have avoided that fate had they undertaken some of the treatments mentioned above. Please have a think about what instinct is really driving you here. I understand it; I spent several years as a fanatic of Dawkins and his atheist/materialist mates; indeed that's actually what started me on the path to where I am now, because at least I (unlike many) picked up the importance of questioning everything and deeply examining all my own beliefs, assumptions and biases. But the attitude you're exhibiting here, and the fact that it is so dominant in the mainstream scientific world, is actually holding back the discovery of more breakthroughs like artemisinin, and thus is slowing the progress of science. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111147/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111147/ [2] https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/ https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/

tomhoward 10y ago

Just note the words/tone you use when addressing this topic: - They don't mind if you pull the medicine out of your ass - This practice is dangerous and has resulted in many negative outcomes. This is navigating through a minefield of unsupported claims, no quality evidence, anecdotes, and people trying to scam you. - Most failed startup don't kill people. Think about how much harder it makes it to get any proper research done, when this is the attitude held and promoted by people in the mainstream science community. It's all very well for people to look at the artemisinin case and say "yes well it's only thanks to modern science we could establish the efficacy of that". Which is true, but it's also only because of the people who avoided/resisted succumbing to the zealotry of mainstream science that it was able to get on the radar of mainstream science at all. In truth, serious harms and deaths as a direct result of alternative medicine are very few. The overwhelming majority of natural/alternative medicine involves educated people undertaking low-risk treatments for non-life-threatening conditions, and experiencing an improved quality of life as a result - hence they keep going back. Primary examples are: yoga, meditation, hypnotherapy, massage, muscular/structural adjustment (osteo/chiro) - all of which work to relieve stress/trauma and release the effects of stress, leading to a long-term reduction in stress-related illness; nutrition, probiotics and detoxification treatments to improve digestion and metabolism. That list probably captures over 95% of the natural/alternative medicine. Practitioners of these therapies are trained, registered, and answerable to regulators, professional bodies, insurers, clients, society and their own conscience. Unethical/incompetent practitioners are exposed and put out of business. Where serious harms or deaths occur, it is front page news. As for efficacy, for these treatments I maintain that the market is a strong indicator. People who experience benefits keep going back, and in growing numbers. But there are also plenty of studies that indicate that people who engage in the above practices enjoy better health over the long term. Here's a study that demonstrates improvements in neurotransmitter levels after 12 weeks of yoga [1]. Meanwhile, deaths just from prescription opioid painkillers numbered over 28000 in the US in 2014 alone [2]. My own experience makes me certain that at least some of those people could have avoided that fate had they undertaken some of the treatments mentioned above. Please have a think about what instinct is really driving you here. I understand it; I spent several years as a fanatic of Dawkins and his atheist/materialist mates; indeed that's actually what started me on the path to where I am now, because at least I (unlike many) picked up the importance of questioning everything and deeply examining all my own beliefs, assumptions and biases. But the attitude you're exhibiting here, and the fact that it is so dominant in the mainstream scientific world, is actually holding back the discovery of more breakthroughs like artemisinin, and thus is slowing the progress of science. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111147/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111147/ [2] https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/ https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/