6 ms·

I disagree with Hobby Lobby's decision, but support their right to make it. There are different types of contraceptives, and that we use the same word for all

I disagree with Hobby Lobby's decision, but support their right to make it. There are different types of contraceptives, and that we use the same word for all types is disingenuous and muddies the argument. The day after pill is very different from a condom, and at least a little different from "the pill".

DanBC 10y ago
> The day after pill is very different Why? They both prevent conception.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  The morning-after pill has two methods of action, IIRC - preventing ovulation, and making the womb inhospitable for implantation. In the latter case conception occurs.
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    We're wandering from the topic, but I don't believe that's correct. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levonorgestrel#Emergency_birth_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levonorgestrel#Emergency_birth... - The primary mechanism of action of levonorgestrel as a progestogen-only emergency contraceptive pill is, according to International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO), to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation and thickening of the mucosa of cervix. FIGO has stated that: "review of the evidence suggests that LNG [levonorgestreol] ECPs cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. (references on the wiki page as always)
    - LyndsySimon 10y ago
      They've removed the notice from that specific type of ECP (and I was not aware of that), but it's still present on other types, including some that are common in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Mechanism_of_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Mechan...
  - Falling3 10y ago
    Conception =/= Fertilization. The latter case you mentioned involves fertilization, not conception.
    - LyndsySimon 10y ago
      Your definition differs from every popular and academic source I've ever found. Example: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conception http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conception "Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization."
      - Falling3 10y ago
        Farther down on that same page: "the fertilization of an ovum by a sperm in the Fallopian tube followed by implantation in the womb"
sp332 10y ago
"I disagree with Hobby Lobby's decision, but support their right to make it." Well I don't, the money belongs to the employees and it's not up to Hobby Lobby to decide how they can spend it.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  Then let's separate employment from health insurance already and remove the ambiguity. The ACA only doubled-down on this problem.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I totally agree that this would be the best way to handle it, but I also don't see the problem with being forced to pay for something you don't agree with. Isn't that basically what government does? Why aren't these people also outraged that their tax dollars are paying for missiles blowing up funerals and weddings in the Middle East?
    - smithkl42 10y ago
      Catholic theologians have spent a lot of time analyzing this problem. The short version is that there's a pretty big moral difference between giving money to somebody (even if you know they're going to do something evil with it), and arranging for the evil yourself. You may have a pretty good idea that your employee Bob is going to spend his paycheck at the local saloon and whorehouse, but that's rather different from personally opening up a tab for him there.
      - proksoup 10y ago
        Wow that's an unfortunate conclusion. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" and whatnot though eh.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        I have a difficult time seeing moral differences where there are no practical differences. If the government says, "Give us $X so that we may use it to purchase a health plan that includes contraceptive coverage," the effect is exactly the same as if they said, "Spend $X purchasing a health plan that includes contraceptive coverage." I don't see how one could be moral and the other not. I can see it at the point where it changes from spending money to taking actions. Actually dispensing or taking contraceptives would be qualitatively different from paying for a health plan. But if it's just your money going to an insurance company, I don't see why it matters if it passes through the government first.

DanBC 10y ago

> The day after pill is very different Why? They both prevent conception.

LyndsySimon 10y ago
The morning-after pill has two methods of action, IIRC - preventing ovulation, and making the womb inhospitable for implantation. In the latter case conception occurs.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  We're wandering from the topic, but I don't believe that's correct. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levonorgestrel#Emergency_birth_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levonorgestrel#Emergency_birth... - The primary mechanism of action of levonorgestrel as a progestogen-only emergency contraceptive pill is, according to International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO), to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation and thickening of the mucosa of cervix. FIGO has stated that: "review of the evidence suggests that LNG [levonorgestreol] ECPs cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. (references on the wiki page as always)
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    They've removed the notice from that specific type of ECP (and I was not aware of that), but it's still present on other types, including some that are common in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Mechanism_of_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Mechan...
- Falling3 10y ago
  Conception =/= Fertilization. The latter case you mentioned involves fertilization, not conception.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    Your definition differs from every popular and academic source I've ever found. Example: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conception http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conception "Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization."
    - Falling3 10y ago
      Farther down on that same page: "the fertilization of an ovum by a sperm in the Fallopian tube followed by implantation in the womb"

sp332 10y ago

"I disagree with Hobby Lobby's decision, but support their right to make it." Well I don't, the money belongs to the employees and it's not up to Hobby Lobby to decide how they can spend it.

humanrebar 10y ago
Then let's separate employment from health insurance already and remove the ambiguity. The ACA only doubled-down on this problem.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I totally agree that this would be the best way to handle it, but I also don't see the problem with being forced to pay for something you don't agree with. Isn't that basically what government does? Why aren't these people also outraged that their tax dollars are paying for missiles blowing up funerals and weddings in the Middle East?
  - smithkl42 10y ago
    Catholic theologians have spent a lot of time analyzing this problem. The short version is that there's a pretty big moral difference between giving money to somebody (even if you know they're going to do something evil with it), and arranging for the evil yourself. You may have a pretty good idea that your employee Bob is going to spend his paycheck at the local saloon and whorehouse, but that's rather different from personally opening up a tab for him there.
    - proksoup 10y ago
      Wow that's an unfortunate conclusion. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" and whatnot though eh.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I have a difficult time seeing moral differences where there are no practical differences. If the government says, "Give us $X so that we may use it to purchase a health plan that includes contraceptive coverage," the effect is exactly the same as if they said, "Spend $X purchasing a health plan that includes contraceptive coverage." I don't see how one could be moral and the other not. I can see it at the point where it changes from spending money to taking actions. Actually dispensing or taking contraceptives would be qualitatively different from paying for a health plan. But if it's just your money going to an insurance company, I don't see why it matters if it passes through the government first.