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Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - wha

Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? If not that then what? That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car.

jacquesm 10y ago
> Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. If that's what you got out of it then you're entirely wrong. I cycle a few thousand Km / year. > Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That the only way in which you can keep cyclists - of all ages - safe is by separating the various traffic streams. By forcible mixing them you are simply asking for trouble. I'm trying hard to imagine Amsterdam cycling traffic without the separation of low speed and high speed traffic into different lanes and with people cycling like suggested above. The carnage would be terrible. > That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? Accidents are called accidents for a reason. That car approaching them from behind may not see them at all due to some momentary distraction. You can attempt to make yourself 'large' and 'visible' but you may still be missed and given the relative difference in strength and weight the outcome is predictable. The best way to stay safe as a cyclist is to stay out of the way of faster and heavy traffic. > That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? There may not even be another lane. And a fairly large number of motorists will not see that as a huge obstacle in trying to pass a cyclist that occupies a whole lane. > If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car. Well, in that case you didn't need to take up more room than you needed in the first place... It's kind of weird how all this seems to center around having a 'safe' place to go to in case the assertive driving ('brave' was the word, why is it considered 'brave' if all it is is safe?) policy fails. Better to recognize your fragility and play it safe from the get go.
- scottishfiction 10y ago
  The point is that the non-assertive position isn't 'playing it safe'. You're no more out of the flow of traffic unless the lane is extra wide, you're signalling to following cars that they are welcome to overtake, and you have robbed yourself of any margin for error when a car misjudges their pass and squeezes you in to a parked car or railing. You're right that the assertive approach is no substitute for segregated infrastructure, but in an imperfect world of mixed-use roads, it's the best way to stay safe, and is the method taught and recommended by many bodies here in the UK. https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/skills/article/izn20130830-Effective-traffic-riding-part-1-0 https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/skills/article/i...
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Interesting. Here in NL we're taught to stay to the right hand side of the lane with about .5 meters of margin to the right relative to where the road surface ends. That way cars can overtake without possibly hitting a cyclist going the other way. Also it is strongly discouraged to cycle side-by side (but kids on the way to and from school routinely ignore that as do couples of all ages). https://fietsmaar.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/schoorlam-n504-fietsstroken.jpg https://fietsmaar.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/schoorlam-n504... Is a nice example of what the map of a road with mixed cycle/car traffic would look like, absent any markings you'd still try to re-create that situation. Same situation in a more urban setting: http://www.fietsfilevrij.nl/wp-content/uploads/P1030380.jpg http://www.fietsfilevrij.nl/wp-content/uploads/P1030380.jpg Cars can - and do - occupy the bike lane if they're moving, will slow down behind a bicyclist if there is oncoming traffic and will move around them when the road is clear from oncoming motorized traffic. Everybody takes the amount of space they need, but no more than they need. To occupy a whole lane and to ignore the 'honking and shouting' (mentioned upthread) would be considered extremely rude and could easily get you in trouble because you're hindering faster traffic.
    - mindslight 10y ago
      Your road design, markings, and customs are completely different. In the US, a "bike lane" is a completely separate lane that cars are not supposed to drive in. Unfortunately they're usually retrofitted onto a road, making all the other lanes narrower. This exacerbates the standard situation: Most roads have a double yellow line down the middle, and drivers are taught to never cross this. The general width of the standard lane is around enough for a larger vehicle and a bike to stand side-by-side, but not enough for comfortable passing. The lowest US traffic speed (outside of neighborhoods) is usually 35 mph (56kph), with the basic non-highway speed being around 40-45 mph (64-72 kph). Most drivers, especially outside cities, expect that they will always be able to pass a bike regardless of any oncoming traffic. Drivers usually pass bikes by moving over a little and continuing at speed - the "good" ones will put their left tires a foot or two over the double yellow line, or possibly slow down to 70% of their speed if oncoming traffic. If the cyclist is in a bike lane or shoulder, the expectation is that a car does not have to account for them at all, since it's the bike's responsibility to continue out of the car's lane. In the US context, I agree with the "take the lane" advice wholeheartedly. It makes cars have to account for you, and leaves your clear-lane buffer to your right where you can rely on it (as opposed to thinking its on your left, and suddenly swerving left due to damage, debris, or door). A driver yelling at you because they had to slow down and plan to deliberately pass you is much better than that same driver passing a foot away at full speed. And if a driver does plow into you from behind, they would have done the same thing had you been a few feet more to the right (unless you are actually riding on the shoulder, which is the general approach in rural areas where speeds are even higher and longer distances mean people space out more). It was actually difficult finding a representative picture, since there are so many distinct types of area in the US. As you go into more planned areas, the neighborhoods become nicer (meant for mixed use), but the arteries become even worse and using them is necessary to go anywhere. Standard less-planned suburban area: http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/LongLane060809/LongLane06080903.jpg http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/LongLane060809/LongLane060... (It even has a shiny sidewalk! I bet it abruptly ends up ahead where the road curves) Slightly denser suburban area (the parked cars): https://www.arlnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ik-009_825x550.jpg https://www.arlnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ik-009_825... Suburban artery that has had its shoulder painted with a picture of a bike - http://rrcoplanning.ppaponline.org/NeighborhoodImages/RiverRoadEntrySmall.jpg http://rrcoplanning.ppaponline.org/NeighborhoodImages/RiverR... What most US drivers perceive: http://www.vaterrarc.com/Content/Images/Products/landing/bg_road2.jpg http://www.vaterrarc.com/Content/Images/Products/landing/bg_...

jacquesm 10y ago

> Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. If that's what you got out of it then you're entirely wrong. I cycle a few thousand Km / year. > Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That the only way in which you can keep cyclists - of all ages - safe is by separating the various traffic streams. By forcible mixing them you are simply asking for trouble. I'm trying hard to imagine Amsterdam cycling traffic without the separation of low speed and high speed traffic into different lanes and with people cycling like suggested above. The carnage would be terrible. > That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? Accidents are called accidents for a reason. That car approaching them from behind may not see them at all due to some momentary distraction. You can attempt to make yourself 'large' and 'visible' but you may still be missed and given the relative difference in strength and weight the outcome is predictable. The best way to stay safe as a cyclist is to stay out of the way of faster and heavy traffic. > That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? There may not even be another lane. And a fairly large number of motorists will not see that as a huge obstacle in trying to pass a cyclist that occupies a whole lane. > If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car. Well, in that case you didn't need to take up more room than you needed in the first place... It's kind of weird how all this seems to center around having a 'safe' place to go to in case the assertive driving ('brave' was the word, why is it considered 'brave' if all it is is safe?) policy fails. Better to recognize your fragility and play it safe from the get go.

scottishfiction 10y ago
The point is that the non-assertive position isn't 'playing it safe'. You're no more out of the flow of traffic unless the lane is extra wide, you're signalling to following cars that they are welcome to overtake, and you have robbed yourself of any margin for error when a car misjudges their pass and squeezes you in to a parked car or railing. You're right that the assertive approach is no substitute for segregated infrastructure, but in an imperfect world of mixed-use roads, it's the best way to stay safe, and is the method taught and recommended by many bodies here in the UK. https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/skills/article/izn20130830-Effective-traffic-riding-part-1-0 https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/skills/article/i...
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Interesting. Here in NL we're taught to stay to the right hand side of the lane with about .5 meters of margin to the right relative to where the road surface ends. That way cars can overtake without possibly hitting a cyclist going the other way. Also it is strongly discouraged to cycle side-by side (but kids on the way to and from school routinely ignore that as do couples of all ages). https://fietsmaar.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/schoorlam-n504-fietsstroken.jpg https://fietsmaar.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/schoorlam-n504... Is a nice example of what the map of a road with mixed cycle/car traffic would look like, absent any markings you'd still try to re-create that situation. Same situation in a more urban setting: http://www.fietsfilevrij.nl/wp-content/uploads/P1030380.jpg http://www.fietsfilevrij.nl/wp-content/uploads/P1030380.jpg Cars can - and do - occupy the bike lane if they're moving, will slow down behind a bicyclist if there is oncoming traffic and will move around them when the road is clear from oncoming motorized traffic. Everybody takes the amount of space they need, but no more than they need. To occupy a whole lane and to ignore the 'honking and shouting' (mentioned upthread) would be considered extremely rude and could easily get you in trouble because you're hindering faster traffic.
  - mindslight 10y ago
    Your road design, markings, and customs are completely different. In the US, a "bike lane" is a completely separate lane that cars are not supposed to drive in. Unfortunately they're usually retrofitted onto a road, making all the other lanes narrower. This exacerbates the standard situation: Most roads have a double yellow line down the middle, and drivers are taught to never cross this. The general width of the standard lane is around enough for a larger vehicle and a bike to stand side-by-side, but not enough for comfortable passing. The lowest US traffic speed (outside of neighborhoods) is usually 35 mph (56kph), with the basic non-highway speed being around 40-45 mph (64-72 kph). Most drivers, especially outside cities, expect that they will always be able to pass a bike regardless of any oncoming traffic. Drivers usually pass bikes by moving over a little and continuing at speed - the "good" ones will put their left tires a foot or two over the double yellow line, or possibly slow down to 70% of their speed if oncoming traffic. If the cyclist is in a bike lane or shoulder, the expectation is that a car does not have to account for them at all, since it's the bike's responsibility to continue out of the car's lane. In the US context, I agree with the "take the lane" advice wholeheartedly. It makes cars have to account for you, and leaves your clear-lane buffer to your right where you can rely on it (as opposed to thinking its on your left, and suddenly swerving left due to damage, debris, or door). A driver yelling at you because they had to slow down and plan to deliberately pass you is much better than that same driver passing a foot away at full speed. And if a driver does plow into you from behind, they would have done the same thing had you been a few feet more to the right (unless you are actually riding on the shoulder, which is the general approach in rural areas where speeds are even higher and longer distances mean people space out more). It was actually difficult finding a representative picture, since there are so many distinct types of area in the US. As you go into more planned areas, the neighborhoods become nicer (meant for mixed use), but the arteries become even worse and using them is necessary to go anywhere. Standard less-planned suburban area: http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/LongLane060809/LongLane06080903.jpg http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/LongLane060809/LongLane060... (It even has a shiny sidewalk! I bet it abruptly ends up ahead where the road curves) Slightly denser suburban area (the parked cars): https://www.arlnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ik-009_825x550.jpg https://www.arlnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ik-009_825... Suburban artery that has had its shoulder painted with a picture of a bike - http://rrcoplanning.ppaponline.org/NeighborhoodImages/RiverRoadEntrySmall.jpg http://rrcoplanning.ppaponline.org/NeighborhoodImages/RiverR... What most US drivers perceive: http://www.vaterrarc.com/Content/Images/Products/landing/bg_road2.jpg http://www.vaterrarc.com/Content/Images/Products/landing/bg_...